To get the AGMA approval for the new gear box for the GEA Polacel for cooling tower, I asked the supplier for it. They told me they don't follow AGMA but can give me DIN and ISO. They also say that European brands don't follow AGMA, but from what I know, all makers should follow AGMA to make sure quality. Please looking advise…
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AGMA-certification 1
- Thread starter moideen
- Start date
Oof, that's a deep subject. First, AGMA, DIN, and ISO does not "approve" any gearboxes that I'm aware of. (It's not like UL.) So in contractual language, a vendor should never offer an AGMA approved or certified gearbox. If they do, question their competence.
On a more practical level, gearboxes designed to AGMA practices and standards are serving in equally severe services as DIN and ISO designed gearboxes. What does vary, from standard to standard and manufacturer to manufacturer, is the robustness of that rating (which comes from the honesty of the inputs they use in calculating the rating and the relevance of those assumptions to your particular use case). I've tested gearboxes built to DIN standards that were very robust and others that were junk. I've also competed against AGMA rated gearboxes that show surface pitting after one year even though they claim the same rating as our product, which has sufficient surface fatigue rating that it will not pit for many years. That competitor, by the way, considers pitting to be a normal wear behavior and not an 'end-of-life' event.
This leaves you to choose based on experience and/or expertise. There are gear design consultants who can probably assist if buying on experience is not an option. I realize that not many facilities keep people and knowledge around long enough to see the difference between good and bad design gearboxes - heck it's a great accomplishment in many cases to simply have the end user performing basic maintenance and operating within the design specifications.
I've seen contracts that require the vendor to supply a fully detailed rating calculation with a PE stamping. The PE generally has no gearbox design experience and signs based on a cursory review that the major inputs (power, RPM, etc) align with the project. Even if the PE was expert in gear design, it would be a deeply detailed audit ito try and confirm the inputs. So that method doesn't seem to add value, from my perspective. And there are only so many gearbox suppliers who will provide those calculations, since all of those details can be considered highly proprietary data.
I'd love to brag that good, reputable gearbox suppliers will always provide their gearboxes with the same robustness over the lifespan of the company. I won't. I think it's often true but mistakes can be made and ownership/management can alter their commercial approach at any time.
On a more practical level, gearboxes designed to AGMA practices and standards are serving in equally severe services as DIN and ISO designed gearboxes. What does vary, from standard to standard and manufacturer to manufacturer, is the robustness of that rating (which comes from the honesty of the inputs they use in calculating the rating and the relevance of those assumptions to your particular use case). I've tested gearboxes built to DIN standards that were very robust and others that were junk. I've also competed against AGMA rated gearboxes that show surface pitting after one year even though they claim the same rating as our product, which has sufficient surface fatigue rating that it will not pit for many years. That competitor, by the way, considers pitting to be a normal wear behavior and not an 'end-of-life' event.
This leaves you to choose based on experience and/or expertise. There are gear design consultants who can probably assist if buying on experience is not an option. I realize that not many facilities keep people and knowledge around long enough to see the difference between good and bad design gearboxes - heck it's a great accomplishment in many cases to simply have the end user performing basic maintenance and operating within the design specifications.
I've seen contracts that require the vendor to supply a fully detailed rating calculation with a PE stamping. The PE generally has no gearbox design experience and signs based on a cursory review that the major inputs (power, RPM, etc) align with the project. Even if the PE was expert in gear design, it would be a deeply detailed audit ito try and confirm the inputs. So that method doesn't seem to add value, from my perspective. And there are only so many gearbox suppliers who will provide those calculations, since all of those details can be considered highly proprietary data.
I'd love to brag that good, reputable gearbox suppliers will always provide their gearboxes with the same robustness over the lifespan of the company. I won't. I think it's often true but mistakes can be made and ownership/management can alter their commercial approach at any time.
Last edited:
mfgenggear
Aerospace
Op
The gear box is designed for imput torque and rpm. And output rpm and torque. All the details are designed and manufactured based on that requirement. Generally a gear box must be test to runs many hours
With out failure. The details are certified to either usa or other specifications. AGMA , Iso or other.
I am strong in the details , each detail is designed to meet or exceed many different specifications including AGMA and ISO.. gear box rating is based on all of above.
Ask for all documentation on inspection and heat treat reports.
The gear box is designed for imput torque and rpm. And output rpm and torque. All the details are designed and manufactured based on that requirement. Generally a gear box must be test to runs many hours
With out failure. The details are certified to either usa or other specifications. AGMA , Iso or other.
I am strong in the details , each detail is designed to meet or exceed many different specifications including AGMA and ISO.. gear box rating is based on all of above.
Ask for all documentation on inspection and heat treat reports.
- Thread starter
- #4
thanks for the comments.
I recently had an experience with an Indian brand, Paharpur Cooling Tower, which has four units placed at our plant. Within six months, the gearboxes began to experience a variety of problems, including oil seal leakage, vibrations, and damaged tower blades during full-speed operation. However, the mechanism functioned properly at lower speeds. The gearbox was identified as the underlying source of these issues.
In contrast, I have Evapco cooling towers at another plant that have been operational for more than nine years with no difficulties with the gearbox or other tower components. After examining the selection sheets of both manufactures, I discovered that Evapco specifically follows the AGMA code for gearboxes.
This event made me more cautious. For future cooling tower requirements, I will prioritize ensuring that the gearbox meets AGMA specifications.
As I said in my first post, the new Polacel cooling tower meets DIN and ISO requirements but not AGMA. My question was based on the context.
Almost never is reliability related to a claim about following a standard nor is following a standard a guarantee of suitability or durability as they might follow the wrong standard or the wrong criteria for a standard applied to your requirements.
What matters is what the company does when you call them up and say their gearboxes are leaking and appear to be causing severe vibration issues.
What I would prioritize is not buying from a maker that doesn't have good answers for why their product appears to have failed.
What matters is what the company does when you call them up and say their gearboxes are leaking and appear to be causing severe vibration issues.
What I would prioritize is not buying from a maker that doesn't have good answers for why their product appears to have failed.
mfgenggear
Aerospace
Op
Have a local gear shop tear down and inspect the gear box. Have them take pictures as it is being dis assembled.
Have the gears inspected to which is specification the gear box manufacture specifies. Inspect the bearings for damage.
There are many factors for a bad gear box. Poor ground surfaces, un balanced details , eg gear shafts or shafts. Under rated or improper bearing installs. The precision of gear box case it self. Improper gear manufacture with excessive run out.
Or bad total composite error.
While the gear box is running before disassembling verify the vibration.
The installation has be level and in line with the motor. And the out put shaft. an improper install can cause vibration and damage.
Have a local gear shop tear down and inspect the gear box. Have them take pictures as it is being dis assembled.
Have the gears inspected to which is specification the gear box manufacture specifies. Inspect the bearings for damage.
There are many factors for a bad gear box. Poor ground surfaces, un balanced details , eg gear shafts or shafts. Under rated or improper bearing installs. The precision of gear box case it self. Improper gear manufacture with excessive run out.
Or bad total composite error.
While the gear box is running before disassembling verify the vibration.
The installation has be level and in line with the motor. And the out put shaft. an improper install can cause vibration and damage.
mfgenggear
Aerospace
Not correct, gears ,spur, bevel, helical have to inspected and certified to a standard. The gear box has to be tested by the manufacture , depending on the industry. Or its function.
mfgenggear
Aerospace
Even commercial gears have to be inspected and certified.
Certified by whom against which standard?
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1
- #11
mfgenggear
Aerospace
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Did you mean: commercial gear standards
AI Overview
+1
Here are some standards for commercial gears:
AGMA and ISO standards: These standards apply to enclosed commercial gearboxes and include a minimum bearing life of 5,000 hours. ISO standards usually have higher torque and power ratings than AGMA standards.
ISO 6336: This standard is used to calculate the load capacity of helical and spur gears.
AGMA 2101-D04: This standard is used to calculate the fundamental rating factors and methods for helical and involute spur gear teeth.
ANSI/AGMA 2015-1-A01: This standard is an accuracy classification system for tangential measurements for cylindrical gears.
ANSI/AGMA 1010-F14 (R2020): This standard is about the terminology of wear and failure for gear teeth.
ANSI/AGMA 6022-D19: This standard is a design manual for cylindrical wormgearing.
ISO 701:1998: This standard uses the letter "u" to denote gear ratio and the letter "i" to denote total transmission ratio.
Gear Torque Ratings - AGMA and ISO Gear Standards | DBS Manufacturing
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www.rushgears.com
Made in the USA Since 1919
Gears — Custom Spur Gears, Helical Gears Worm Gears, Bevel Gears, 3D CAD. Nobody Makes Custom Gears Faster Request A Quote Online Today! Nobody makes Gears faster. 24hr to 1 week production. Gear Quotes in 1 hour. Types: Spur Gears, Worm Gears, Bevel Gears, Helical Gears.
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Did you mean: commercial gear standards
AI Overview
+1
Here are some standards for commercial gears:
AGMA and ISO standards: These standards apply to enclosed commercial gearboxes and include a minimum bearing life of 5,000 hours. ISO standards usually have higher torque and power ratings than AGMA standards.
ISO 6336: This standard is used to calculate the load capacity of helical and spur gears.
AGMA 2101-D04: This standard is used to calculate the fundamental rating factors and methods for helical and involute spur gear teeth.
ANSI/AGMA 2015-1-A01: This standard is an accuracy classification system for tangential measurements for cylindrical gears.
ANSI/AGMA 1010-F14 (R2020): This standard is about the terminology of wear and failure for gear teeth.
ANSI/AGMA 6022-D19: This standard is a design manual for cylindrical wormgearing.
ISO 701:1998: This standard uses the letter "u" to denote gear ratio and the letter "i" to denote total transmission ratio.
Gear Torque Ratings - AGMA and ISO Gear Standards | DBS Manufacturing
DBS Manufacturing
AGMA: American Gear Manufacturers Association
ANSI Webstore
Comparing Helical Gear Rating Standards - Regal Rexnord
Comparing Two Primary Gear Rating Standards The two main comparisons used in the United States, Canada, Central, and South America, are ISO 6336 (Calculation of...
Regal Rexnord
What are the different ways to express a gear ratio? - Motion Control Tips
Apr 9, 2021 — Per the ISO 701:1998 standard, gear ratio is denoted with the letter “u” and total transmission ratio — the total ratio of input speed to output spee...
Motion Control Tips
Generative AI is experimental. Learn more
DBS Manufacturing
https://www.dbsmfg.com › gear-to...
Gear Torque Ratings - AGMA and ISO Gear Standards
Commercial gearboxes are rated with a L10 bearing life of 5,000 hours, or seven months. Industrial gearboxes are rated with a L1 0 life of 100,000 hours or 11 ...
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
People also ask
What are the standards of gears?
What is the difference between ISO 6336 and AGMA?
What are the AGMA standards?
What is the difference between AGMA and ISO?
Feedback
American Gear, Inc.
https://www.americangearinc.com › ...
Quality Gear Manufacturing Standards
We have created formal documented Quality Assurance program that follows ISO 9000 Standards, a Quality Assurance Manual, and a Standard Operating Procedures ...
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
Rush Gears
https://www.rushgears.com › standa...
Standards & Tolerances
Standards and tolerances have been established to ensure our customers get consistently accurate, dependable parts.
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
bdtechconcepts.com
https://bdtechconcepts.com › design...
Introduction to Gear Design — What Should They Look Like?
One of the first steps in designing a gear is the selection of the tooth form to be used. To a certain extent this decision is based upon rating requirements.
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
ANSI Webstore
https://webstore.ansi.org › sdo › a...
AGMA: American Gear Manufacturers Association
AGMA, the American Gear Manufacturers Association, is a nonprofit organization that develops and publishes standards covering the manufacturing of gears.
$68 to $390
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
People also search for
AGMA gear standards PDF
DIN gear Standards PDF
AGMA 8 gear standards
AGMA standards for spur gears
AGMA gear quality chart
Gear quality class comparison
Regal Rexnord
https://www.regalrexnord.com › co...
Comparing Helical Gear Rating Standards
There are different gear rating standards used throughout industrial applications. Here's what you need to know to compare AGMA 2101 and ISO 6336 standards.
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
Commercial Gear & Sprocket Company, Inc.
https://commercialgear.com › ...PDF
SYMBOLS FOR RULES & FORMULAS
Commercial Gear and Sprocket Company, Inc. is however, standing by to assist you or design and fabricate to your specifications. Our third generation family ...
3 pages·105 KB
Designatronics
https://www.designatronics.com › G...
Gears, Precision and commercial, inch and metric sizes | SDP/SI
SDP/SI is a well-known manufacturer of high precision standard and custom gears for a wide range of applications.
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
Heavy Movable Structures
https://heavymovablestructures.org › ...PDF
comparison of agma and aashto gear ratings
Herringbone gears are usually cut with helices in the 23 to 30 degree range as stated in the standard. Most are cut with a 30 degree helix. A single helical ...
6 pages·132 KB
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
Gear Motions
https://gearmotions.com › Blog
Gear Quality and Precision Gears
Oct 4, 2017 — Gear Motions is an ISO 9001:2015 Certified precision gear manufacturer located in Central New York, USA. We are capable of manufacturing to a quality level as ...
Missing: comercial | Show results with: comercial
Sponsored
Rush Gears
Welcome to rushgears.com - Nobody makes custom gears faster!!!
Welcome to rushgears.com. We manufacture all types of gears and machine parts in just about any material to suit your needs.
www.rushgears.com
Gears — Custom Spur Gears, Helical Gears Worm Gears, Bevel Gears, 3D CAD. Nobody Makes Custom Gears Faster Request A Quote Online Today! Nobody makes Gears faster. 24hr to 1 week production. Gear Quotes in 1 hour. Types: Spur Gears, Worm Gears, Bevel Gears, Helical Gears.
Gears Types
Horsepower Calculator
Gear Calculators
Spur Gears
Reverse Engineering
Custom Helical Gears
Gear CAD Design Tools
Custom Worm Gears
Sponsored
Gear Motions
Gear Motions - Precision Gear Manufacturer located in Central NY, USA
Gear Motions is a leading gear manufacturer specializing in supplying high quality custom cut and ground precision gears made in the USA.
www.gearmotions.com
We Make Custom Precision Gears Complete from Start to Finish - Call for a Quote. Leading Custom Gear...
View our Capabilities
About Gear Motions
Request a Quote
Gear Grinding Services
Contact Gear Motions
Call (315) 488-0100
People also search for
AGMA 10 gear tolerances
AGMA standards free download
Seligman, Arizona - From your device
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I'm using a formal definition of 'certified', where an industry-agreed 3rd party body manages the certifications or manages a self-certification process. I've never regretting taking contractual wording with crisply literal interpretations.
"certification: the process of earning an official document, or the act of providing an official document, as proof that something has happened or been done"
Anybody can offer a guarantee or "self-certify" their products. There's no official body or certification earned. The value of that practice comes down to the reputation of the issuing company. Contractually that's different from a product that is actually certified. NIST certifies measuring tools. NSF certifies products that touch drinking water. ATEX certifications are handled by Nominating Body organizations. ISO certifies organizations against a few specific standards such as 9001. You get product labels and certificates to attest that.
AGMA does a lot of great work, but I've never seen them issue approval or certify anybody's products. Maybe there are other 3rd party organizations that will perform a certification. In my experience with gearboxes, industry leans toward approved vendor lists or per-contract load testing when trying to weed out less robust or defective products.
"certification: the process of earning an official document, or the act of providing an official document, as proof that something has happened or been done"
Anybody can offer a guarantee or "self-certify" their products. There's no official body or certification earned. The value of that practice comes down to the reputation of the issuing company. Contractually that's different from a product that is actually certified. NIST certifies measuring tools. NSF certifies products that touch drinking water. ATEX certifications are handled by Nominating Body organizations. ISO certifies organizations against a few specific standards such as 9001. You get product labels and certificates to attest that.
AGMA does a lot of great work, but I've never seen them issue approval or certify anybody's products. Maybe there are other 3rd party organizations that will perform a certification. In my experience with gearboxes, industry leans toward approved vendor lists or per-contract load testing when trying to weed out less robust or defective products.
mfgenggear
Aerospace
Dgeesaman
Many tier 1 companies require iso 9001 certification , with the quality systems .
It is done by contract. Certifying all components to iso , or agma or what ever.
Many tier 1 companies require iso 9001 certification , with the quality systems .
It is done by contract. Certifying all components to iso , or agma or what ever.
mfgenggear
Aerospace
Let's take a step back and take a deep breath.
Can you buy an uncertified gear box yes,
Should or does it satisfy the requirement.
Yes or maybe.
There is many gear boxes for commercial use that are not.
The quality is suspect, with out documentation.
If it is a safety. Or important requirement, like a back up generator to a hospital. Yes it should be certified.
Can you buy an uncertified gear box yes,
Should or does it satisfy the requirement.
Yes or maybe.
There is many gear boxes for commercial use that are not.
The quality is suspect, with out documentation.
If it is a safety. Or important requirement, like a back up generator to a hospital. Yes it should be certified.
ISO 9001 offers nothing to ensure product quality. Having worked for a few companies with 9001 audits and certification, there is very much a sliding scale for ISO 9001 implementation. The business of ISO 9001 auditing is such that they don't apply equal scrutiny - they apply just enough to keep pushing each company forward from where they currently are. What is a documented finding at one company with one auditor isn't even a discussion at another. Let's not forget 9001 is a certification of business processes. It lets you execute at any level of performance you please (as long as you follow your business processes).
Saying "AGMA Certified" is not accurate unless AGMA actually saw it and certified it. Saying "We certify this product is made to AGMA standards 123, 456, 789" is perfectly legal and reasonable. Self-certification is completely acceptable. The difference is extremely important.
mfgenggear
Aerospace
Incorrect
Here are the requirements
www.iso-9001-checklist.co.uk
With the gear industry all inspection equipment has to be calibrated to different specification. One is the national institute of standards and technology, was bureau of standards. All parts have strict first articles, and final inspection to AQL levels . Gears have to be inspect to the drawing AGMA standard specified.
There fore certificate or certification of conformance would state certified to the specified standard. your equipment and the employees have to be certified. Or it can not state this on certifications.
That is fraud.
Here are the requirements
What are the ISO 9001 Requirements?
To attain ISO certification, a company or organization must submit documents that report its internal processes, procedures and standards. These documents (or Quality Management System) determines that a company is able to provide quality products and services consistently. Contents
www.iso-9001-checklist.co.uk
With the gear industry all inspection equipment has to be calibrated to different specification. One is the national institute of standards and technology, was bureau of standards. All parts have strict first articles, and final inspection to AQL levels . Gears have to be inspect to the drawing AGMA standard specified.
There fore certificate or certification of conformance would state certified to the specified standard. your equipment and the employees have to be certified. Or it can not state this on certifications.
That is fraud.
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