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America's High-Tech Quandary 10
- Thread starter BitTwiddler
- Start date
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moltenmetal,
I agree that the Chinese situation is different from Japan's. China certainly cares less about international norms, but at the same time remember that the exchange rate cuts both ways. Sooner or later the Chinese middle class will want to improve their standard of living. This means that they get paid more, or the currency imbalance is corrected, or they leave the country. Consider that in leaving China they can live in a freer society, have more than one child, and get paid a lot more, this is not a small problem for China. Japan never really faced this problem -- few Japanese engineers ever wanted to leave Japan. My guess is that the Chinese goverment will move toward currency balance rather than see a large brain drain or have to increase wages.
It will also be interesting to see how both India and China deal with the shortage of women. China has been "importing" wives from North Korea -- something the North Korean government is not very enthusiastic about, to say the least -- helping women leave North Korea is a capital offense.
Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.
I agree that the Chinese situation is different from Japan's. China certainly cares less about international norms, but at the same time remember that the exchange rate cuts both ways. Sooner or later the Chinese middle class will want to improve their standard of living. This means that they get paid more, or the currency imbalance is corrected, or they leave the country. Consider that in leaving China they can live in a freer society, have more than one child, and get paid a lot more, this is not a small problem for China. Japan never really faced this problem -- few Japanese engineers ever wanted to leave Japan. My guess is that the Chinese goverment will move toward currency balance rather than see a large brain drain or have to increase wages.
It will also be interesting to see how both India and China deal with the shortage of women. China has been "importing" wives from North Korea -- something the North Korean government is not very enthusiastic about, to say the least -- helping women leave North Korea is a capital offense.
Jim Treglio
Molecular Metallurgy, Inc.
moltenmetal
Chemical
HVAC68: as LCruiser points out, my point was that being cheapest by means of being "best"- most efficient or smart etc.- doesn't necessarily guarantee your success in the world market. Your argument is based on the assumption of a free and fair marketplace, and it's an invalid assumption often enough even here at home in a Western nation with intellectual property rights, the rule of law and a free press etc. Bring an oligarchical regime with enormous economic clout into the mix and your assumption is even farther off the mark.
If you want to hang your livelihood and the economic future of your nation on such an idealistic assumption and try to apply it to an unregulated global marketplace, good luck to you. Personally I'll be looking for better international policy to ensure fairness in the process of trade from ALL nations, including China.
JTreglio: I wouldn't count on China's oligarchy putting the brakes on their wanton economic growth over fears of a "brain drain". Perhaps they'll let the currency appreciate suddenly to enrich themselves personally, but I think power and control is sexier to these folks than money could ever be so I don't see such a move as at all likely. The economic growth they're promoting isn't just for national pride or personal gain- it's to permit them to wield enhanced international power.
If they're worried about people leaving the country, they'll simply stop granting exit permits and put the offenders in jail. Chances are they won't even bother to do that. With 1.3 billion, China's got lots of shortages to be concerned about, but it has no shortage of smart people. Women, perhaps...maybe their "government" will just mandate that you can have as many female children as you want, but only one male?! Population control will tend to improve as the standard of living of the average Chinese person improves. But unfortunately, per capita consumption of resources will grow faster than the population was growing before which bodes serious trouble for the planet.
If you want to hang your livelihood and the economic future of your nation on such an idealistic assumption and try to apply it to an unregulated global marketplace, good luck to you. Personally I'll be looking for better international policy to ensure fairness in the process of trade from ALL nations, including China.
JTreglio: I wouldn't count on China's oligarchy putting the brakes on their wanton economic growth over fears of a "brain drain". Perhaps they'll let the currency appreciate suddenly to enrich themselves personally, but I think power and control is sexier to these folks than money could ever be so I don't see such a move as at all likely. The economic growth they're promoting isn't just for national pride or personal gain- it's to permit them to wield enhanced international power.
If they're worried about people leaving the country, they'll simply stop granting exit permits and put the offenders in jail. Chances are they won't even bother to do that. With 1.3 billion, China's got lots of shortages to be concerned about, but it has no shortage of smart people. Women, perhaps...maybe their "government" will just mandate that you can have as many female children as you want, but only one male?! Population control will tend to improve as the standard of living of the average Chinese person improves. But unfortunately, per capita consumption of resources will grow faster than the population was growing before which bodes serious trouble for the planet.
qcme
Industrial
- Nov 17, 2005
- 7
to answer the original question posted by BitTwiddler:
Breed more Americans! =P China has the world's largest population, it's not surprising they can graduate more engineers than the US...China would spend all the money on their people as long as they are on the road to FAST improvement and development...so the more the merrier! =D
Breed more Americans! =P China has the world's largest population, it's not surprising they can graduate more engineers than the US...China would spend all the money on their people as long as they are on the road to FAST improvement and development...so the more the merrier! =D
If you have to compete and win, you have to be competitive. Period. If your law doesn't allow you to compete, change the law - I know, it's easier said than done. Compete, win or perish. But, that's what competition is all about. You need to innovate, find out ways and means to become competitive not necessarily cheap - it helps if you are also cheap. Again, lot of assumptions are being made saying that China is not bothered about lot of things. Look at the progress China has made, despite having a communist outlook. Another general statement being made -
Quote
It will also be interesting to see how both India and China deal with the shortage of women. "
Unquote
The female to male ratio in India as per 2001 census is about 93%. I don't think it's so alarming to import women into India !!!
Out of the 4 assumptions made, am sure "subsidy" and "lower tariffs" are entirely in your control (I mean the Government). I don't fully agree with the other 2 assumptions - "working under inhuman conditions" and "Cheating and taking away somebody else's R&D investment" in its entirety.
HVAC68
Quote
It will also be interesting to see how both India and China deal with the shortage of women. "
Unquote
The female to male ratio in India as per 2001 census is about 93%. I don't think it's so alarming to import women into India !!!
Out of the 4 assumptions made, am sure "subsidy" and "lower tariffs" are entirely in your control (I mean the Government). I don't fully agree with the other 2 assumptions - "working under inhuman conditions" and "Cheating and taking away somebody else's R&D investment" in its entirety.
HVAC68
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1
- #47
BitTwiddler, your premise is incorrect. Where did you get your numbers? It appears that the number of engineers that are graduated in the US on a yearly basis are more or less on a par with the number that are produced in India. There are nowhere near 1,000,000 engineers graduationg from China. On a per capita basis, since the US population is so much smaller than that of either China or India, the US churns out more engineers per capita that these other countries currently do. See the article below.
Maui
Maui
- Thread starter
- #48
BitTwiddler
Electrical
The numbers are from the "Design News" article I hyperlinked to in the original post.
From a table from that article, the National Sceince Foundation counted the number of four-year engineering degrees granted in 2000 as 219,563 in China versus 59,536 in the US.
The "Red Herring" article you hyperlinked to is based on a study written by the same fellow who wrote this article:
Most people in the US define an "engineer" as someone with a four-year degree from an ABET-accredited college of engineering. Mr. Wadhwa counts workers with two-year and three-year technical degrees as "engineers" instead of "technicians". He also appears to count some science degrees granted in the US as "engineering" degrees.
Additional links:
From a table from that article, the National Sceince Foundation counted the number of four-year engineering degrees granted in 2000 as 219,563 in China versus 59,536 in the US.
The "Red Herring" article you hyperlinked to is based on a study written by the same fellow who wrote this article:
Most people in the US define an "engineer" as someone with a four-year degree from an ABET-accredited college of engineering. Mr. Wadhwa counts workers with two-year and three-year technical degrees as "engineers" instead of "technicians". He also appears to count some science degrees granted in the US as "engineering" degrees.
Additional links:
"Most people in the US define an "engineer" as someone with a four-year degree from an ABET-accredited college of engineering."
LOL. First off, most people in the US have no clue what ABET is. Secondly, most *courts* define an engineer as a P.E.
Third, how many ABET accredited schools are there in China?
LOL. First off, most people in the US have no clue what ABET is. Secondly, most *courts* define an engineer as a P.E.
Third, how many ABET accredited schools are there in China?
- Thread starter
- #50
BitTwiddler
Electrical
Actually, if you walk into a bar in America and tell the first girl you see that you are an engineer, about half of the time "So you drive a train?" will be her response ...
Perhaps I should have written that "Most informed people in the US consider a four-year degree from an accredited engineering college to be the minimum standard required to train an engineer".
Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is a topic for another thread.
Perhaps I should have written that "Most informed people in the US consider a four-year degree from an accredited engineering college to be the minimum standard required to train an engineer".
Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is a topic for another thread.
LCruiser,
World society as a whole pretty much defines an engineer as someone who does engineering, regardless of credential. Most of the engineering being done in the world, as well as in the USA, is done by persons so described. Seems to me that engineering licensure serves little purpose.
World society as a whole pretty much defines an engineer as someone who does engineering, regardless of credential. Most of the engineering being done in the world, as well as in the USA, is done by persons so described. Seems to me that engineering licensure serves little purpose.
The report entitled "Framing the Engineering Outsourcing Debate: Placing the United States on a Level Playing Field with China and India" is contained in the following link:
On page 3 of this report it states,
Maui
On page 3 of this report it states,
The graph labeled #2 on page 7 of the report is a histogram comparing the number of bachelor's and subbaccalaureate degrees in Engineering, CS and IT awarded annually per million citizens in the US, China, and India. Note that in terms of bacheor's degrees the US produced more graduates per capita than either China or India. On the same page you will find this statement
I have taught in the Engineering College at Syracuse University for the past consecutive nine years. I have not seen any significant decline in enrollment during that period of time. In fact, I had to be assigned a lecture hall for the first time this fall because my junior level engineering course doubled in size from the previous fall semester. I believe that what is discussed in the media regarding this topic has been distorted. I do not see any shortage of graduating engineers. Perhaps our Canadian friends could tell us if they are experiencing any shortage of engineers. I suspect that their answer will be no, they are not.
Maui
flamby
Structural
- Feb 12, 2002
- 591
The link lists almost all the engineering colleges in India and my estimate is no more than 100,000 engineers graduate in India. Taking all unrecognised degree courses also, I may revise my number to 150,000 but no further. The figure of 350,000 is incredible.
Ciao.
moltenmetal
Chemical
maui: no shortage here in Canada. In fact, when the yearly supply of engineers from both bachelor's level graduation and immigration are combined, we're probably adding 10,000 more engineers to the workforce pool yearly than we can hope to use properly as engineers. That's a big number, considering the yearly bachelor's graduation rate for all of Canada is only about 10,000 engineers. The result is that thousands of recent grads seek employment outside of engineering, and thousands of recent immigrants cannot find work as engineers and end up as factory workers, taxi drivers etc. It's a problem which worsens yearly and there's no real solution in sight.
Have a look at for the supply-side stats and analysis for Canada.
Have a look at for the supply-side stats and analysis for Canada.
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1
- #55
I just read an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal about India expecting a shortage of about 500,000 IT workers by 2010, despite graduating huge numbers of engineers/techs. While India's 17000 colleges and universities graduate many engineers, the schools are poorly regulated and only the top dozen are so schools in the country are comparable to top level schools here, and after that, the Indian education system falls off dramatically. From the article: "Many of those who go to university find colleges that haven't evolved much from the British colonial era."
Other quotes from the article:
India produces a huge number of engineers, says L&T's chairman A.M. Naik, but most are graduates of mediocre private engineering colleges. "I spend more time on human resources than actually doing work".
"There are huge numbers of fresh [university] graduates who are just not hirable," says Anand Saraf, managing director of Iqura Technologies.
Competition for talent is fierce. Larsen & Toubro Ltd., the subcontinent's largest construction company, loses 800 experienced engineers a year to software firms and multinational engineering companies, despite having doubled salaries over the past couple of years. In response, the company has launched a global head-hunting campaign to woo back staffers lost to foreign rivals by offering salaries of as much as $100,000.
The article can be read here:
If that doesn't work google for "indias talent pool drying up". It's an interesting article, and has some insight into China's talent shortage too.
Other quotes from the article:
India produces a huge number of engineers, says L&T's chairman A.M. Naik, but most are graduates of mediocre private engineering colleges. "I spend more time on human resources than actually doing work".
"There are huge numbers of fresh [university] graduates who are just not hirable," says Anand Saraf, managing director of Iqura Technologies.
Competition for talent is fierce. Larsen & Toubro Ltd., the subcontinent's largest construction company, loses 800 experienced engineers a year to software firms and multinational engineering companies, despite having doubled salaries over the past couple of years. In response, the company has launched a global head-hunting campaign to woo back staffers lost to foreign rivals by offering salaries of as much as $100,000.
The article can be read here:
If that doesn't work google for "indias talent pool drying up". It's an interesting article, and has some insight into China's talent shortage too.
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