Another big recall 44

[enginesrus]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/06/business/air-bag-recall/index.html

Will they ever learn a tin can with no pressure relief system, is just not the proper pressure vessel.

 

[IRstuff]

So come up with a valid solution instead of just trolling

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[GregLocock]

2 deaths and 7 serious injuries in 14 years? Say a recall costs $200 per vehicle, that values each death or injury at over a billion dollars. Crash CBA is based on perhaps $21 million per death/serious injury in Australia. Ludicrous.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Latexman]

But how many lives were saved when the air bags functioned properly?

Good Luck,
Latexman

 

[wayne440]

If this keeps up, the "solution" will be that production of air bags will become a third rail that no company will touch.

 

[Just Some Nerd]

If this keeps up, the "solution" will be that production of air bags will become a third rail that no company will touch.

My intuition tells me that the global automobile market isn't going to shut down any time soon because companies don't want to make airbags

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

 

[thebard3]

The evolution of technology
1- Individual idea
2- Patent issued
3- Lots of private money spent to develop
4- More private money spent to deploy as a product innovation
5- Government hears about it and mandates use through legislation
6- Entities now share liability
7- Lawsuits, bankruptcies and penalties applied
8- ?

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

 

[thebard3]

a tin can with no pressure relief system, is just not the proper pressure vessel

More like a gun rather than a pressure vessel.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

 

[SuperSalad]

a tin can with no pressure relief system, is just not the proper pressure vessel

More like a gun rather than a pressure vessel.

A balloon cannon, if you will.

- Andrew

 

[LittleInch]

Will they ever learn a tin can with no pressure relief system, is just not the proper pressure vessel.

When will you learn that everyone else here thinks you're talking absolute bollocks?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[IRstuff]

Will they ever learn a tin can with no pressure relief system, is just not the proper pressure vessel.

The OP is talking bollocks because they can't seem to read and comprehend reports and descriptions of how air bags work, and how they're failing. A pressure relief system would do almost nothing to solve the issue at hand

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V334-3594.PDF

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[3DDave]

It should be possible to build in a break-away that causes the rupture to happen in a predetermined fashion and either prevent fragmentation or guide the fragments away from the occupants.

Based on the Takata footage it was clear that the contaminated contents plugged the exhaust holes, converting the gas generator into a pipe bomb because there was no proper rupture path. The DoD studied ammonium nitrate degradation due to humidity in order to estimate the lifetime of IEDs. Too much water and it won't burn effectively.

The inflators use phase-stabilized ammonium nitrate (PSAN) as a propellant that has been known to result in violent explosions and send metal shrapnel into the faces of vehicle occupants.

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/...ck-against-nhtsa-gm-initiates-air-bag-recall/

Seems like the same issue as Takata.

From same:

ARC Vice President of Product Integrity Steve Gold wrote that NHTSA’s position is not based on any objective technical or engineering conclusion about a defect, “but rather conclusory statements regarding hypothesized blockage of the inflator orifice from ‘weld slag’ and a subjective inference that a defect exists based upon the occurrence of seven (7) field ruptures in the U.S.

Apparently NHTSA agrees on the blockage, though the element doing the blockage differs.

ARC's response:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2016/INRR-EA16003-90616.pdf

It appears ARC opted for a single port, possibly limiting exposure to humidity, where Takata had multiple ports, and thus beating the poor performance of Takata.

Overall it appears to be a good record; I do prefer belt -and- suspenders for explosives.

 

[Factoter]

Hello all,

https://mid-mountain.com/specialty-airbag-fabrics-military-applications/

article snippet:
*Outside the remit of flight, the US Army has even experimented with external airbags using ballistic grade materials on vehicles to protect against the incursion of IEDs (improvised explosive devices). NASA is also currently experimenting with various laminated coated heat-resistant fabrics, which include Kevlar, nylon and polyester, to develop a new parachute and high resistance landing airbags for the Mars Lander.*

Edit: higher resistance, to puncture, or containment with toughened materials, sounds like a fix to this problem. But want to add that two airbag faults that are more prevalent are: accident, and no airbag deployment, which is a fairly common occurrence; and the opposite case, a non-accident deployment. This latter condition is less consequential I suppose, but both are more significant than shrapnel. But I can’t quantify, just my d observations. As an aside, the best antidote might be a little strategic *planned obsolescence * where the airbag defaults to inactive after X conditions are met, sort of like an oil maintenance reminder idiot light.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I think it's ambulance chasing lawyers driving this not any normal safety risk assessment.

 

[thebard3]

If this keeps up, the "solution" will be that production of air bags will become a third rail that no company will touch.

Yet, we still have cigarettes and bouncy houses....

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

And planes are still flying.

And let's not talk about helicopters.

 

[enginesrus]

If the case holding the propellant is thick enough then a pressure relief would work just fine, then go back in time to the safer more stable propellant. I like how logic in this day is now called trolling.
Yeah lets not try to cure a problem just sweep it away by calling it a name.

 

[btrueblood]

"go back in time to the safer more stable propellant"

More stable? Are you talking about sodium azide? The one that's incredibly toxic, and needs additional oxidizers to burn the sodium metal released, said oxidizers form high-heat-content particulates that could burn people?

 

[3DDave]

sodium azide disposal appears to be the greater risk; the risk of burns is dwarfed by the damage done by razor sharp shrapnel slicing arteries.

I would like to see what they found when they did burst testing or even if they did burst testing. It was clear that, after some feedback, Takata did some testing which turned out to be burst testing and failed to immediately publicize the risk rather than develop a mitigation.

 

[enginesrus]

I would like to see the data on how well all the replacements from the big Takata recall are doing. Since they just added a desiccant to the ammonium nitrate mix.
In other words the same propellant with more junk added to it. So what happens when the desiccant becomes saturated? I want to see the data. An internet search pulls up absolutely nothing.
I think on some vehicles the last replacements were in 2016? So then if it was a 2009 it was 7 years the first time it was changed, and again now another 7 years, I'd say past due for another recall !
Has there been any quality check on these replacements that are now 7 years old?
And right on 3DDave Sodium Azide is candy compared to bursting cans turned into shrapnel. I'd like to know why this is all just tossed under the rug? And no real engineering is involved? Why is it legal to plant explosives in pretty much every car on the road in the US?