Another Miami Beach condominium with structural problems 9

[Mark R]

A 164 unit condominium building in Miami Beach was evacuated this morning after a structural engineering review highlighted some severe problems! Miami Beach condos evacuated

 

[phamENG]

Why the “we believe….it might” language?

My speculation: one (or both) of two things:

1) A mostly futile attempt to distance themselves from any liability if they're wrong. A bunch of people were just ordered from their homes. Somebody has to pay for that. If it can be shown that they were wrong and there really wasn't danger, somebody would probably try to sue them to recoup the cost of staying in a hotel or renting a house for 6 months.

2) Recognition that they haven't done a detailed analysis. They can look at the framing and say that it looks like it's carrying all of that...but exactly how much load is transferring through there hasn't been determined so they temper their language.

This kind of language is very common in structural reports in the US. It's how I was trained to write them, too. Hard habit to break, even when confidence and authority are warranted/needed.

 

[Tomfh]

Ok, makes sense.

 

[EZBuilding]

[URL unfurl="true"]https://therealdeal.com/miami/2022/11/14/evacuated-port-royale-miami-beach-residents-can-return/[/url]

"At the time, Inspection Engineers, based in Hialeah, said the beam might support the entire structure, although it cautioned this was based on visual observations. Calderone later determined the beam only supported the fourth floor."

I think this generally speaks to the challenges associated with determining the condition of a building when all finishes are in place and without access to existing building drawings. I believe the solution lies in placing a higher emphasis on having the design Engineer of Record be involved with the certification inspections through the lifetime of the building.

 

[spsalso]

And then the guy dies. Or retires and moves to Madrid. Or gets "sent up", and is in no mood to answer questions. Or gets brain rot.

Not that he shouldn't be able to answer questions until that time. But later, actual records that can be examined will have to take his place.

Coming to mind are the records of all construction inspections, something I haven't seen for CTS. Which inspections were done? What were the results?


spsalso

 

[SFCharlie]

The "city" should be charging a fee for the x0 year inspection and using it to pull all the files on record for the building as was done in the case of Champlain Towers South. JMNSHO (Just My Not So Humble Opinion)

SF Charlie
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[SwinnyGG]

I believe the solution lies in placing a higher emphasis on having the design Engineer of Record be involved with the certification inspections through the lifetime of the building.

This is a non-starter, unless you expect it to be common for structural engineers to have 80 year careers.

The EOR on a major concrete structure is not going to be a 25 year old kid - it's going to be a 35 or 40 year old guy with some experience. Meaning you've got, best case, 20 years of that guy's attention left. After that he's gone or doesn't care.

 

[stcbus]

Any news on CTN? Seems all the new info dried up but could be interesting info from it especially with the shoring put up.

 

[AusG]

Seems to me there is a conundrum around thorough inspection: hard to do without stripping the finish, so expensive and disruptive. Loss of experience or information over time (EOR gone, builder gone, plans lost or obselete due to alterations etc), and the inspection may cause new damage as we saw with the cored rebar in the pool deck slab at CTS. Is there a case for non-destructive observation? e.g. visible surveyors targets at strategic points and a periodic precise xyz survey of corners and levels against a baseline; periodic instrument recording of building vibration and sway also against a baseline recording after construction; a few embedded strain gauges perhaps. Additional cost perhaps but not a lot in the grand scheme of things, and digital recording of results not hard with modern technology.

 

[dik]

Times have changed... I did that often... I did the six storey building down the street when I was 22 or 23... and did many 18-20 storey CMU buildings at that time.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[SwinnyGG]

I did the six storey building down the street when I was 22 or 23

I'm sure you worked on them, but you weren't the EOR at 22.

 

[dik]

Sorry Swinny that was the year I got my seal... I even did the drafting for it. I had 4 or 5 doors with parallel rules on them and I used to use a door for a drafting board and just changed doors. Tried to keep the drawings on the door until the project was complete... back then, you only needed two years after graduation to get registered. There was no other engineer on the job, and my seal was on it... so I guess I'm the EOR. The apartment building had 6" conc bearing walls with 8" HC slabs... and it's still standing. My error... I was 24 when I did this stuff, not 22 or 23.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik