Any reason CPVC can not be used on drain, bell and iinspector's test?

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Inspecting a warehouse system I found where the installing contractor was using CPVC downstream the inspector's test valve, downstream the 2" main drain angle valve and on the 3/4" supply from the alarm check valve to water motor gong.

Seemed strange to me but I can't find anything wrong with it. Not the way I do things but is there something I am missing?

 

[TravisMack]

FFP1:

I can honestly say I agree 100% with the above statement! Have a great weekend!

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[sprink131371]

Baring codes and all that they bring with them, let me add my three cents.
From a complete installation view.
I have always used threaded pipe and fittings for my drains, relief lines et cetera. And always will.
A few years back I was on a project where the foreman wanted to use grooved couplings instead of unions on the floor control drain line to the gang drain connections. I thought it didn't look as professional, nor did it give it the rigidness a union does. While easier to install and repair it just did not look right.
Shortly after on another project the foreman wanted to use CPVC on the packing drip lines and relief line on the fire pump, saying it was easier to unclog the lines if and when that were required. (No glue, just dry fit.)
Yes it was easier to install, but it just did not look right. I guess maybe I am olde school or just too particular (and/or anal retentive).
All the trim and drains on MY projects have been done in steel piping with cast fittings (even the gang drains on CPVC systems), and I have always been quite pleased and proud of the results.
Some consideration should be given to what conditions and stresses these pipes will be under. Be it corrosiveness or incompetent people stepping on them.
Shouldn't the ultimate goal be to give the customer an exceptional quality fire protection system which will operate properly in any situation?
If it cost's my company a few dollars to make me confident that I have done the best job that I could, I am quite satisfied. And may I add, I am proud of all of the job I have installed.
As far as water motor gong piping, I would NEVER, EVER, use CPVC. Even if it were listed and approved by the AHJ, State and Federal Fire Marshal.
But I digress.
As far as code requirements are concerned, cdafd and SD2 have been right on in posts I have seen here and have my utmost respect.
Because ultimately, we are here to save lives and property.

If we all agreed, we would be Communists. - Me

 

[rconner]

Irrespective of codes (some of the modern verbiage sounds sort of like gobble-de-gook!), if I were trapped in a building or trying to put out a fire myself in a building (or my granny were trapped in a building) with a lot of smoke (combusion by-products of same) I would then prefer that the piping the designer or builder had put in same (as well as a lot of other stuff) were metal instead of pvc.

 

[Atlantaterp2]

NFPA 13 6.1.1.5 Components that do not affect system performance such as drain piping, drain valves, and signs shall not be required to be listed.

I'm not saying it's not unprofessional to install CPVC drains on a steel system. However, I believe it is allowed by code.

The piping to the motor gong is another matter.

 

[NJ1]

I guess we can all agree to the fact that is not a code violation however it shows what kind of contractor did the work.
We should also check what the manufacturer says when installing a water motor gong. If I recall correctly you can not use cpvc when installing water motor gong trim piping.
As far as drains and bottom of inspectors test valve. I have no problem but GOD DAMM I will never hire you again.

 

[TravisMack]

For those that say using CPVC is unprofessional, when allowed by the standards, what then is a professional product? Are Ex Cov sprinklers unprofessional? Are ESFR? What about grooved couplings and/or Sch 10 piping? Is drawing in CAD unprofessional, or should it all be done by hand?

Not to beat a dead horse, but contractors are using the latest technology and methods to keep going in this tight market. If CPVC and flex heads can be used in a building, per the adopted standards, for 1/2 the costs of Sch 40 and hard piped drops, why should a contractor be penalized for knowing what technology is there an using it?

I still remember when EC-25 sprinklers came out. I was working in a contractor's office at the time. We bid a storage project using the EC-25 sprinklers and were able to save several branch lines across a large building. We were about 35% low on the job. The GC was hesitant to award us the job because of the wide spread in the bids. But, with a bit of education of the GC, we were awarded the project - and made a good profit at the end. Should we have not gotten the job because we were the only ones that used these sprinklers (new technology at the time) in the design/build process? It provided the same level of protection as a standard 11.2 sprinkler, but allowed nearly 2x the area of coverage per sprinkler.

If you don't embrace current advances in fire protection materials, you may be left behind in the market. And, I just have a design firm, not an installation company, so I don't really have a dog in the fight. I just think that sticking to old methods as new come about could lead to stagnancy in the profession.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[FFP1]

I am the guilty party Travis has called out.

I did not state and I do not believe using CPVC is unprofessional. I was not referring to contractors who use CPVC in accordance with approved standards and follow ALL of the CPVC manufacturer's installation guidelines. I actually agree with everything you stated regarding the use of new products and technology. {I am a FPE and I am only 43 years old.......so I am not totally old-school!!}

The clarification I would like to make (in my defense) is that I was providing a response to the example which started this long blog: "installing contractor was using CPVC downstream of the inspector's test valve, downstream of the 2" main drain angle valve and on the 3/4" supply from the alarm check valve to water motor gong."

My response was the following: "I would not consider your example a violation of NFPA requirements, but I would consider this practice to be poor quality and not entirely professional."

This has created some passion and a little tension on the blog and I am now somewhat intrigued...........Assuming we are dealing with an NFPA 13 system which has schedule 40 steel pipe for all of the other system piping; I wonder how many blog participants would consider the specific example I have listed above to be poor quality & not entirely professional. Please provide a quick response if you have an opinion.

My response would be as follows: Not entirely professional. If I am conducting an initial inspection and I find this specific example, I would stay very focused throughout the inspection process to make sure I do not miss potential problems with the system (i.e. actual NFPA violations). I suppose I am jaded because I have found WAY to many problems over the past 20+ years and there is no doubt in my mind that some sprinkler contractors cut corners on a regular basis in the name of profit.

God bless everyone.....it is almost time for Church here in the great state of Georgia!

 

[TravisMack]

I hope none of the above came across as "hostile," as it was not intended that way at all. I find the discussion rather intriguing. I agree that when you see CPVC in a building, you need to be very careful in the inspection as there are a lot of requirements that go along with CPVC installation. But, I do not consider the presence of CPVC unprofessional.

Actually, it was the following quote that I was responding to above:

As far as drains and bottom of inspectors test valve. I have no problem but GOD DAMM I will never hire you again.

And, I am just as 'jaded' on many installations. I can't tell you how many times we have seen poor, and blatantly wrong, installations where corners were cut in what appears to be in sole profit motive - not that profit is a bad thing.

1 - Riser sway bracing to a stud wall because the block wall was further away is one I see a lot of! It drives me crazy.

2 - Installing CPVC piping outside of its listing is another I see to frequently.

3 - Improperly installed pump room piping happens on probably 50+% of the pump installations I have seen.

God bless everyone as well - just got back from church in the great state of Arizona!




Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[sprink1313]

I believe Travis called me out too, and no it was not hostile.
Maybe I'm just stuck in old school.
I personally don't care for CPVC, almost completely only on the grounds, that it is soooooo boring to install. And, harder to draw since it's not as involved with detail and I'm too meticulous. On a side note [I had a helper work with CPVC while I was on vacation,(seven years ago) and I asked what he thought about it upon my return,he said "CPVC is for the women"].
My other issue is that sometimes it does not "look" professional in certain applications. Above the ceiling is one thing but I feel, exposed is another.

God Bless you in Arizona, I'm behind you.

If we all agreed, we would be Communists.- Me.

 

[TravisMack]

You guys brought up what I was wondering if it was the case. The use of steel only comes from the "old school" mentality. I started in the late 80's and had some older fitters saying how Sch 10 was not good to use. They preferred a building being all Sch 40. Some of the older guys didn't really care for grooved either, as they didn't think it was a quality installation. I worked for a company in the late 90's that would only use Sch 40, just because the owner felt that Sch 30 and thinner was an inferior product.

For those that don't like CPVC, what are your thoughts on flexheads and other technology like that? I remember starting out and we basically had upright / pendent / sidewall in ½" and 17/32" orifices. Now, you go from 3/8" orifice to 31/32" orifice or whatever the K25.2 sprinklers are now. The range of sprinklers is mind boggling when compared to the 80's and earlier. I view the use of CPVC as similar to using these newer sprinklers. They are fine when used within the listings and manufacturer's guidelines, but can be disastrous when used outside of that criteria.

With the new IRC requirements for sprinklers in single family homes, I think the industry needs to fully embrace CPVC or the residential single family work will land with the plumbing contractors.

PS - And for the comment about being with us in AZ - Thank you!!!!!!


Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[NJ1]

I guess I have to apologize as well. I Just believe that if an entire sprinkler system is steel why finish the drain portions with CPVC. I do not think that using latest technology has anything to do with this particular case. Is like building a house with solid concrete but using wood instead to build the attached garage. Why not use concrete as well.

FFP1
I will be moving to the Atlanta, Ga area. I hope i like it.
Any advise?

 

[FFP1]

Advice regarding life in the Atlanta area: Find a job close to home and/or prepare yourself mentally for horrendous TRAFFIC!

I graduated from GT and I lived in the Atlanta area for several years.........plenty to do and most Atlanta residents are nice/friendly; however, almost every person you meet will be crazy busy (borderline hectic lifestyle) because traffic and travel distances will affect every aspect of your life.

The same story for most large metropolitan areas I suppose.........Atlanta is a good place to live. I wish you well and I hope you truly enjoy living in Atlanta, GA!

 

[NJ1]

Well I live in Jersey City, NJ. That is on the border of NYC. Traffic here is bad as well.
As far as finding job close to home it will not matter. I am a Fire Protection Specialist and most likely I will have to be on the road (sucks) untill I get the Department Manager position.
What fire protection company you do not recommend to with.(confidential)

 

[sprink1313]

NJ1, when you move here to the ATL, do not move to the north, south, east, or west of the city. I now live where I said I never would (North East of Atlanta down one of the slowest highways ever). But I do love it, and ended up twelve country miles and three stop signs from the office.
I'd give you a few names never to deal with but there is no way to do it confidentially here, and who knows if I would have to reapply with them one day.
As far as flex heads go, I personally have never had the opportunity to install them, but I understand you can relocate about eighty a day (of course with my two helpers and myself, we get that in a day with goose necks and hard piped drops). However, it does make it possible for the GC to move the head themselves and there by "stealing" money from the sprinkler contractor.
I personally also don't care for the new Victaulc couplings which don't need to be completely broke apart to install.(Two years in the office and then back in the field due to slow economy) it was hard for me to get used too.
Good Luck in your relocation, you will love Georgia, except when it so humid you can't breathe, but that's only eight months out of the year.

If we all agreed, we would be Communists.- Me.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Travis,

I started my career in 1976 when 99% of what we did was pipe schedule using sch. 40 pipe and threaded fittings. I think we used the 1974 edition of NFPA #13. Yep, lot's of 8" threaded stuff.

I remember estimating wet warehouse systems on pipe for $1.25 per square foot with less than $1.00 per sq. ft. being unheard of.

To see where technology has brought us what cost $1.25 in 1976 would cost $4.66 in 2009. If you were to buy exactly the same products in 2009 and 1976, they would cost you $1.25 and $0.32 respectively.

Here it is, 2010 and we're selling ESFR systems for less than $1.00 per square foot which, adjusted for inflation, is less than 1/4 of the 1976 price.

Could you imagine selling a plain Jane warehouse system (interior only, no fire pump or underground) for $4.66 per square foot today? The thought makes me giddy.

The point is I know there are some old school people but if you don't adapt you will die.

 

[TravisMack]

Thanks for putting numbers to it, SD2. That is kind of what I was trying to get at, but didn't have the hard numbers to back it up.

I know several contractors that would retire after 1-2 jobs if they could get an ESFR warehouse at $4.66 / sq ft.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

FFP1
I will be moving to the Atlanta, Ga area. I hope i like it.
Any advise?

I'm 250 miles south of Atlanta almost as far south as you can go and still be in Georgia. Having moved from the North Coast area five years ago I'd have to say it was the best move I ever made.

Art
deenfire.com

 

[NJ1]

Wow.
FPP1 thanks for your support.
As far as the comments of CPVC being able to be use with steel. I cant care less. As far as my employees and any individual under my supervision I will not tolerate that. Unfortunately we can not make decisions for other business owners. I feel that if you have control of your situation it should not happened. Is truly not a code violation but in the other hand is not great practice.

Thanks

 

[ryano669]

"For those that don't like CPVC, what are your thoughts on flexheads and other technology like that?"

I don't have anything against CPVC personally, but to install it correctly, complying with all the manufacturer requirements seems to be more trouble than it is worth. You have to make sure every other component of your system (cutting oil, fire caulk, pipe dope, etc) is compatible with the CPVC. In addition, I have read studies now that show the MIC coating applied to some pipes reacts unfavorably with the CPVC and can lead to failure. We have tried the Flexheads, as well as Aquaflex (now Victaulic) but have found that the installation requirements for minimum bend radius are absurd. They are only feasible in an ideal situation where one might have 18" of clear space above the ceiling to route branchlines. Now the company I work for is making a move to all ductile iron threaded fittings in lieu of the traditional cast iron. They are roughly half the cost. I am not necessarily one of the "old" guys, but I am hesitant to accept these fittings. They look "cheap". I do feel however that it is our responsibility as designers, contractors, etc. to seek innovative cost saving methods to further the industry. Has anyone had any experience using ductile iron fittings on a large scale? I would love to hear of problems, or success stories for that matter.

Regards,
RyanO

 

[MGXFP]

My company has used flexheads extensively. We quite like them. The best applications we have seen are large to very large buildings, their use makes economic sense in this setting.

However we like CPVC piping as it saves considerable time and money for light hazard buildings (except when someone forgets to glue a joint). Most of our pipe is concealed anyways in these applications.