I sometimes do residential structural engineering work and have recently got into discussion with this contractor regarding design fee. Some of the time the jobs I work on our small enough where I am the only professional involved preparing the plans (i.e. no architect). I told him I thought architect's charge about 7% of the construction cost for a custom home plans. He was blown away by this number and said I was way off base, am I? Maybe his only experiences are with clients who purchased a set of starter plans and had the design professional bring it up to local codes or had a "designer" draft up the plans and bring them to arch or eng to bring up to code and seal. I base my fees for every job based on an hourly estimate it takes me to do what calculations and/or drawings need to completed. I think he thinks everything should be a flat fee regardless of complexity...like a "small addition prepare plans and seal = $1,500"....this guy is frustrating me. Interested in others thoughts on the 7% on archs fee for custom home plans and what you charge for small residential work? How much do you think location plays into costs...I am in florida.
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Architect/Structural Fee Residential 11
- Thread starter jgeng
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This might be more of a function of the type of client, but we've worked on multiple residences for wealthy individuals (we typically refer to them as a "rich guy house"). These are with architects that almost always end up having articles published on the project. I can't say I know what their fee is, but given that our fee is typically 3%-4%, I think 7% sounds low for the architect.
Our designs for these types of homes are also typically not wood. There's usually a sheet of glass wrapping the home or some other type of construction that makes wood impossible. In my opinion, this makes it easier. I've never designed an entire home out of wood, but it seems like it would be extremely time consuming.
Our designs for these types of homes are also typically not wood. There's usually a sheet of glass wrapping the home or some other type of construction that makes wood impossible. In my opinion, this makes it easier. I've never designed an entire home out of wood, but it seems like it would be extremely time consuming.
This is a great topic....
I have started to do side work away from my firm, and i am getting into constant debates about fee's.
My firm(not my side work) charges from .5% to 1%, depending on the architect. So lets say about .75% of construction costs. We are design consultants for typically new commercial structures.
Currently we are also the lead on a concrete restoration project, we were are getting the lead fee of 5% of construction costs. This is in turn equals a LOT of money on a 15-20 million project.
Now when a non licensed "architet" / drafter brings me a job they want me to review and sign and seal for 350$ regardless of the construction costs.... And i think this is B.S.
I have started to do side work away from my firm, and i am getting into constant debates about fee's.
My firm(not my side work) charges from .5% to 1%, depending on the architect. So lets say about .75% of construction costs. We are design consultants for typically new commercial structures.
Currently we are also the lead on a concrete restoration project, we were are getting the lead fee of 5% of construction costs. This is in turn equals a LOT of money on a 15-20 million project.
Now when a non licensed "architet" / drafter brings me a job they want me to review and sign and seal for 350$ regardless of the construction costs.... And i think this is B.S.
racookpe1978
Nuclear
No. If you can get a steady and livable number of 3% fee jobs without getting complaints or "I will go look somewhere else" negatives, then your 3% fee is too low.
If you get a 75% "Accept" rate, and can live with that 25% "Except" rate based on losing the time and effort making the lost bids, then the 3% fee is about right.
If you get a 75% "Accept" rate, and can live with that 25% "Except" rate based on losing the time and effort making the lost bids, then the 3% fee is about right.
abusementpark
Structural
To do it right, it would undoubtedly be time consuming. Especially with modern residential architects/designers who pretentiously try to mimic an urban skyline in the roof design of an urban home. Of course, these overworked "McMansions" are all crammed so closely together in new subdivisions that they destroy each other aesthetically.
Does any structural engineer get rich doing residential work?
abusementpark
Structural
correction to above post: suburban home
What do you fellows think would be a fair fee for engineering where the plans are designed for smaller commercial projects ($100,000 to $500,000) by a senior technologist. The designer, now out on his own, has spent many years working in an architectural office and is a self starter. He drafts the entire project (sans mechanical and electrical, I do no drafting but do review and seal. I view the fee composition to be a combination of actual sructural design time and allowance for liability exposure. In many cases the latter is a subtantial part of the fee. One other point; how should cost of pre-engineered components fit into the mix.
I don't know that I see a whole lot of benefit to the engineer sealing drawings if they are designed by a technologist in terms of reducing time on the job, and, consequently, his fee.
First, if that technologist is not under the direct supervision of the sealing engineer, then that could be a violation of state rules.
Second, unless the engineer is involved from the beginning he is essentially starting from scratch. He has to verify all loads, framing, follow all load paths to ground, check all the calcs, check details (to ensure they respect the assumptions made in design as well as for constructability).
First, if that technologist is not under the direct supervision of the sealing engineer, then that could be a violation of state rules.
Second, unless the engineer is involved from the beginning he is essentially starting from scratch. He has to verify all loads, framing, follow all load paths to ground, check all the calcs, check details (to ensure they respect the assumptions made in design as well as for constructability).
Lion06 3% is high, from my experience. But like racook9e is your firm can get those rates and continue to get enough work to stay in business more power to them.
rittz, I think it really comes down to who has or gets the work. Not so much actual work, and liability. I agree with you that if i am reviewing the whole project, and then assuming full liability for the project as the main professional i deserve the lions share of the fee. Unfortunately, these "designers" or what ever they want to call them selves are selling the work, and can find some whore of an engineer to do it for less.
rittz, I think it really comes down to who has or gets the work. Not so much actual work, and liability. I agree with you that if i am reviewing the whole project, and then assuming full liability for the project as the main professional i deserve the lions share of the fee. Unfortunately, these "designers" or what ever they want to call them selves are selling the work, and can find some whore of an engineer to do it for less.
This is a great topic, mostly because it is one of those thngs we love to complain/debate about.
It has been my experience that there is extreme fee reduction pressure in doing residential structural work. I have never done a whole house design, but I get lots of calls about fixing some sort of problem, usually on residential renovation projects. Some of the calls come from builders and some of them come from homeowners. I used to stress out and try to reason with them about what scope of work would be required to deliver a quality result, but they never wanted to hear it. Now, I just quote them a fair, but reasonable price for an initial inspection and consultation including a letter report of our findings, and quote them an hourly fee or a fixed fee per drawing/detail/etc for a permit package. I'll be honest, the hit rate on these calls is minimal. Its not really worth the time to answer the phone, because I am certain that after they hang up with me, they call the next guy on the list, and then the next guy after that, until they find someone who will do it for $300, and I never hear from them again.
I presume that the only money in residential structural design is probably in high end "rich guy houses" because they actually have to have design professionals because they are outside of the limitations of IRC or conventional light framing. But the effort required to design these projects is substantial, so getting an appropriate fee is still probably difficult to do.
It has been my experience that there is extreme fee reduction pressure in doing residential structural work. I have never done a whole house design, but I get lots of calls about fixing some sort of problem, usually on residential renovation projects. Some of the calls come from builders and some of them come from homeowners. I used to stress out and try to reason with them about what scope of work would be required to deliver a quality result, but they never wanted to hear it. Now, I just quote them a fair, but reasonable price for an initial inspection and consultation including a letter report of our findings, and quote them an hourly fee or a fixed fee per drawing/detail/etc for a permit package. I'll be honest, the hit rate on these calls is minimal. Its not really worth the time to answer the phone, because I am certain that after they hang up with me, they call the next guy on the list, and then the next guy after that, until they find someone who will do it for $300, and I never hear from them again.
I presume that the only money in residential structural design is probably in high end "rich guy houses" because they actually have to have design professionals because they are outside of the limitations of IRC or conventional light framing. But the effort required to design these projects is substantial, so getting an appropriate fee is still probably difficult to do.
msquared48
Structural
I have commonly used 0.5 to 2%, depending on the complexity of the residence and what services were involoved.
Some higher end homes with moment frames, non-stacking shear walls, transfer beams, and those more of commercial construction in nature, 3% is not unreasonable for full service (calcs, drafting, shop drawings and inspection).
FYI all, I just bid a small 2 story wood frame house here for lateral calcs and markups only - the winning bid was between 4 and $500 - undercutting me by several hundred dollars. It's getting tough and very competitive out there. I was the middle of three bids. No reason to lower my price though.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
Some higher end homes with moment frames, non-stacking shear walls, transfer beams, and those more of commercial construction in nature, 3% is not unreasonable for full service (calcs, drafting, shop drawings and inspection).
FYI all, I just bid a small 2 story wood frame house here for lateral calcs and markups only - the winning bid was between 4 and $500 - undercutting me by several hundred dollars. It's getting tough and very competitive out there. I was the middle of three bids. No reason to lower my price though.
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask
Lion-
I agree with this so mch, that I am re-posting your post in its entirety:
don't know that I see a whole lot of benefit to the engineer sealing drawings if they are designed by a technologist in terms of reducing time on the job, and, consequently, his fee.
First, if that technologist is not under the direct supervision of the sealing engineer, then that could be a violation of state rules.
Second, unless the engineer is involved from the beginning he is essentially starting from scratch. He has to verify all loads, framing, follow all load paths to ground, check all the calcs, check details (to ensure they respect the assumptions made in design as well as for constructability).
M^2-
At $500 bucks for a job like that, you'd better get it done before lunch or you'll be out of business.
You gotta make enough $ above and beyond wages to keep the lights on!
I agree with this so mch, that I am re-posting your post in its entirety:
don't know that I see a whole lot of benefit to the engineer sealing drawings if they are designed by a technologist in terms of reducing time on the job, and, consequently, his fee.
First, if that technologist is not under the direct supervision of the sealing engineer, then that could be a violation of state rules.
Second, unless the engineer is involved from the beginning he is essentially starting from scratch. He has to verify all loads, framing, follow all load paths to ground, check all the calcs, check details (to ensure they respect the assumptions made in design as well as for constructability).
M^2-
At $500 bucks for a job like that, you'd better get it done before lunch or you'll be out of business.
You gotta make enough $ above and beyond wages to keep the lights on!
SkiisAndBikes
Structural
In my area, most of the house designs up to around 6,000 sq.ft. are typically done by architectural techs or home designers. Above 6,000 sq.ft. requires both a registered architect and engineer.
Typical fees charged by the arch techs is in the $1.00 to $1.50 per sq.ft. The designs generally follow the prescriptive requirements of the Code, i.e. pick and choose spans from tables in the Code. There is no way I can/want to complete entire house plan for that low of a fee. Therefore, I have developed a relationship with many of the home designers where I am called in to engineer anything beyond the perscriptive requirements, items such as long span beams, beams with point loads, tall wood framed walls, tall foundation walls. And it's all billed hourly.
There are the 'rich person houses', which quite often become structurally complex and require both architects and engineers. One house I worked on had 35 full size architectural drawings and another 7 or 8 structural drawings for a 2,500 sq.ft. chalet. The fee was definitely more than $1.00 to $1.50 sq.ft!!!!
I have walked away from many projects where fee expectations are low and still remain busy. And sometimes they come back to you. I once bid about $4,000 to do a job and lost it to another engineer who bid $500. It turned into a $5,000+ job to fix everything that should have been done right in the first place. Know what needs to be done, do it efficiently and charge accordingly.
Typical fees charged by the arch techs is in the $1.00 to $1.50 per sq.ft. The designs generally follow the prescriptive requirements of the Code, i.e. pick and choose spans from tables in the Code. There is no way I can/want to complete entire house plan for that low of a fee. Therefore, I have developed a relationship with many of the home designers where I am called in to engineer anything beyond the perscriptive requirements, items such as long span beams, beams with point loads, tall wood framed walls, tall foundation walls. And it's all billed hourly.
There are the 'rich person houses', which quite often become structurally complex and require both architects and engineers. One house I worked on had 35 full size architectural drawings and another 7 or 8 structural drawings for a 2,500 sq.ft. chalet. The fee was definitely more than $1.00 to $1.50 sq.ft!!!!
I have walked away from many projects where fee expectations are low and still remain busy. And sometimes they come back to you. I once bid about $4,000 to do a job and lost it to another engineer who bid $500. It turned into a $5,000+ job to fix everything that should have been done right in the first place. Know what needs to be done, do it efficiently and charge accordingly.
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My dentist charges me in accordance with his Schedule of Fees, so when my wife attended a few days ago to get a filling in one of her teeth, she was in his office for nearly one hour. Her bill was over $1,000 which I paid, somewhat begrudgingly.
Three years ago, I needed the services of a barrister. He told me his fee was $375 per hour and he was not prepared to commit to a specific dollar amount. He recommended application to the court for dismissal and estimated his fee to be somewhere between $5,000 and $10,000 up until the dismissal application was made (with no guarantee of success). When I asked for an estimate to go through trial, he simply indicated it would be in "the tens of thousands". When I asked how many tens of thousands, he said "seven or eight".
Dentists and lawyers do not compete with each other for work as engineers do. Dentists and lawyers don't care if someone walks out of their office without accepting their terms. Some dentists even charge a fee for looking at your teeth and estimating the cost to do the remedial work. If you don't like it, you still pay the examination fee.
Why don't engineers do that? What is the matter with engineers? We seem to be genuinely afraid to charge fees commensurate with the expertise and time required to do the project and the responsibility involved.
On small residential projects, we act like fly-by-night contractors, undercutting fees in order to get a job which, like as not will end up in court because we do not spend enough time to do it properly.
Until we smarten up, this is what will continue to happen.
BA
Three years ago, I needed the services of a barrister. He told me his fee was $375 per hour and he was not prepared to commit to a specific dollar amount. He recommended application to the court for dismissal and estimated his fee to be somewhere between $5,000 and $10,000 up until the dismissal application was made (with no guarantee of success). When I asked for an estimate to go through trial, he simply indicated it would be in "the tens of thousands". When I asked how many tens of thousands, he said "seven or eight".
Dentists and lawyers do not compete with each other for work as engineers do. Dentists and lawyers don't care if someone walks out of their office without accepting their terms. Some dentists even charge a fee for looking at your teeth and estimating the cost to do the remedial work. If you don't like it, you still pay the examination fee.
Why don't engineers do that? What is the matter with engineers? We seem to be genuinely afraid to charge fees commensurate with the expertise and time required to do the project and the responsibility involved.
On small residential projects, we act like fly-by-night contractors, undercutting fees in order to get a job which, like as not will end up in court because we do not spend enough time to do it properly.
Until we smarten up, this is what will continue to happen.
BA
I have done residential plans for one contractor for years now.
This guy routinely takes generic plans off the internet and wants me to turn them into actual construction dwgs for him to submit to building officials and the homeowners. The guy acts like all I have to do is reproduce is generic plans in CAD and he wants me to do it for a ridiculously cheap fee = to about the same amount as a set of pre-approved, pre-packaged plans, but these are usually custom homes.
I finally gave up on the guy a few weeks back.
I love residential building projects. I have built many many homes with my own hands. I keep hoping that I can make a fair wage amount on these projects, but I think it is just a pipe dream.
I honestly don't think there is any $$ to be made on residential projects unless they are "rich guy homes".
This guy routinely takes generic plans off the internet and wants me to turn them into actual construction dwgs for him to submit to building officials and the homeowners. The guy acts like all I have to do is reproduce is generic plans in CAD and he wants me to do it for a ridiculously cheap fee = to about the same amount as a set of pre-approved, pre-packaged plans, but these are usually custom homes.
I finally gave up on the guy a few weeks back.
I love residential building projects. I have built many many homes with my own hands. I keep hoping that I can make a fair wage amount on these projects, but I think it is just a pipe dream.
I honestly don't think there is any $$ to be made on residential projects unless they are "rich guy homes".
The one that gets me going, is i could design a 3 story commercial cmu/concrete building, be completely liable for it and get paid .75% of construction costs.
And 5 years later a Realtor can walk up to the same building and tell some people how great the building is and get 3.5% on each end, 4-5 times what i got paid on each end. I think about this almost daily as i see Realtors driving around in there Mercedes.
And 5 years later a Realtor can walk up to the same building and tell some people how great the building is and get 3.5% on each end, 4-5 times what i got paid on each end. I think about this almost daily as i see Realtors driving around in there Mercedes.
pmblair,
I'm not sure many Realtors are driving Mercedes with the way the market is today (at least in the US).
I have always been fascinated by this topic. I see that most fees are based upon construction costs. How do you properly figure construction costs. Is this something that is give to you by the architect during the bidding phase?
I recently lost a job on a small commercial project. The project was a wood framed 4,800 square foot garage with a mezzanine. The client (owner) had no idea what he was getting into or what was required. He didn't realize that the local jurisdiction required an architect/engineer to design the project. He though he could just go out an build the structure himself like the "old days". I gave him a free education on the design/permitting process process only to be quickly dismissed once he had all of the necessary information. Kind of irritating.
I'm not sure many Realtors are driving Mercedes with the way the market is today (at least in the US).
I have always been fascinated by this topic. I see that most fees are based upon construction costs. How do you properly figure construction costs. Is this something that is give to you by the architect during the bidding phase?
I recently lost a job on a small commercial project. The project was a wood framed 4,800 square foot garage with a mezzanine. The client (owner) had no idea what he was getting into or what was required. He didn't realize that the local jurisdiction required an architect/engineer to design the project. He though he could just go out an build the structure himself like the "old days". I gave him a free education on the design/permitting process process only to be quickly dismissed once he had all of the necessary information. Kind of irritating.
What BA described puts the writing on the wall.
Calling engineering a profession is only applicable when others
want it to be ie. where liability is concerned or innovative cost cutting designs are involved. But when the subject of renumeration
is on the table, then this concept of professionalism goes out the window.
What we need to do is hire a good-natured nanny to take care of us and watch out for our interests, since we lack this capability ourselves.
Calling engineering a profession is only applicable when others
want it to be ie. where liability is concerned or innovative cost cutting designs are involved. But when the subject of renumeration
is on the table, then this concept of professionalism goes out the window.
What we need to do is hire a good-natured nanny to take care of us and watch out for our interests, since we lack this capability ourselves.
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