I sometimes do residential structural engineering work and have recently got into discussion with this contractor regarding design fee. Some of the time the jobs I work on our small enough where I am the only professional involved preparing the plans (i.e. no architect). I told him I thought architect's charge about 7% of the construction cost for a custom home plans. He was blown away by this number and said I was way off base, am I? Maybe his only experiences are with clients who purchased a set of starter plans and had the design professional bring it up to local codes or had a "designer" draft up the plans and bring them to arch or eng to bring up to code and seal. I base my fees for every job based on an hourly estimate it takes me to do what calculations and/or drawings need to completed. I think he thinks everything should be a flat fee regardless of complexity...like a "small addition prepare plans and seal = $1,500"....this guy is frustrating me. Interested in others thoughts on the 7% on archs fee for custom home plans and what you charge for small residential work? How much do you think location plays into costs...I am in florida.
Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
Architect/Structural Fee Residential 11
- Thread starter jgeng
- Start date
GoodDeal-
Just a couple thoughts. Last time I was at the dentist's office it cost about $120 for a 20 minute cleaning with a hygenist. There's nothing particularly special about that other than the fact that insurance is picking up the bill.
I think a statement like " sizing wall studs? answering RFI's? sizing rebar for a slab" isn't hard trivializes our roll. There's a LOT more to structural engineering (even on two and three story buildings) than " sizing wall studs? answering RFI's? sizing rebar for a slab".
Additionally, are our clients in any better position to understand what we really do than we are to understand what a dentist (or hygenist) does. I don't think so.
Could a contractor construct a three story building and provide any assurance to it's safety? Possibly, but not without being terribly conservative (which isn't always a good thing, especially for concrete design) or being an engineer himself. Just throwing more rebar in a slab could quickly cause it to be over-reinforced. Too much P/T will quickly result in problems for the owner. What about building drifts, spandrel deflection at curtainwall, lateral systems, vibrations, deep foundations, specialized connections? I'm sure there's more that's escaping me at the moment, but the point is that (at least is the work I've been exposed to) there's a lot more to what we do than simply " sizing wall studs? answering RFI's? sizing rebar for a slab".
Just a couple thoughts. Last time I was at the dentist's office it cost about $120 for a 20 minute cleaning with a hygenist. There's nothing particularly special about that other than the fact that insurance is picking up the bill.
I think a statement like " sizing wall studs? answering RFI's? sizing rebar for a slab" isn't hard trivializes our roll. There's a LOT more to structural engineering (even on two and three story buildings) than " sizing wall studs? answering RFI's? sizing rebar for a slab".
Additionally, are our clients in any better position to understand what we really do than we are to understand what a dentist (or hygenist) does. I don't think so.
Could a contractor construct a three story building and provide any assurance to it's safety? Possibly, but not without being terribly conservative (which isn't always a good thing, especially for concrete design) or being an engineer himself. Just throwing more rebar in a slab could quickly cause it to be over-reinforced. Too much P/T will quickly result in problems for the owner. What about building drifts, spandrel deflection at curtainwall, lateral systems, vibrations, deep foundations, specialized connections? I'm sure there's more that's escaping me at the moment, but the point is that (at least is the work I've been exposed to) there's a lot more to what we do than simply " sizing wall studs? answering RFI's? sizing rebar for a slab".
okay, back to the original topic which was residential design fees and "rich guy houses."
I've got a follow up to my previous post about the proposal submitted a proposal two weeks ago for a "rich guy house" and the cents/sf was 2.5x my typical rate for base commercial buildings. After touching base with the architect about the job, he said that he had only budgeted X amount of dollars (which coincidentally was 2.5x less than what I had proposed) but that in hind sight he recognized that he had under-budgeted for my fee. we're meeting in the middle and I guess that's what you call "fee negotiation."
I think a very important thing to remember as a structural engineer is that all client are not created equal in terms of what fee they can get. some architect's may be able to negotiate 7% from the owner and some may only get 4%. just remember that things always even out.
I've got a follow up to my previous post about the proposal submitted a proposal two weeks ago for a "rich guy house" and the cents/sf was 2.5x my typical rate for base commercial buildings. After touching base with the architect about the job, he said that he had only budgeted X amount of dollars (which coincidentally was 2.5x less than what I had proposed) but that in hind sight he recognized that he had under-budgeted for my fee. we're meeting in the middle and I guess that's what you call "fee negotiation."
I think a very important thing to remember as a structural engineer is that all client are not created equal in terms of what fee they can get. some architect's may be able to negotiate 7% from the owner and some may only get 4%. just remember that things always even out.
I can't say I've ever read up on the subject, but isn't that exactly what the healthcare industry is based on? Each procedure has a fee associated with it? I recognize some places charge more, but for the most part, there is a set fee that insurance companies will pay for the service.
idecharlotte
Structural
We only do residential and have been very successful at it for 12 years now. When we quote a job we quote it based on it's architectural complexity and whether they want the engineering drafted by hand or on CAD. But our average fee is about 25 cents per square foot (total under roof) for a basic McMansion, hand drafted over the designer's drawings in 90mph wind no earthquake region. I've charged up to $2 per sf for a house in CAD on the coast (120mph). It's all relative to the complexity but the goal is to achieve $125 to $150 per hour, which I'd say we do quite often.
We also do not carry E&O and have had similar experience as sailsam. Anybody can get sued for anything. I think it's safer to not carry insurance with this type of work. Only time will tell.
We also do not carry E&O and have had similar experience as sailsam. Anybody can get sued for anything. I think it's safer to not carry insurance with this type of work. Only time will tell.
JennyNakamura
Structural
Kind of off the subject, but can't you loose your house and everything you own and end up living in a cardboard box under a bridge abutment somewhere if you get sued without E&O insurance?
For the record, I love high-end custom residential. It is the most interesting and challenging engineering experiences to be had. All the different materials -- CMU, wood, steel moment frames, concrete, cold-formed steel, structural glass, structural aluminum -- all rolled into one project. And the wind and seismic analysis is crazy (which I love) with the odd shapes that a lot of these houses have. If not for the money consideration, I would do "rich guy houses" over a hospital, school, warehouse, or bridge any day. But from a business perspective, they are money losing propositions for medium and large size firms. As idecharlotte says, if you can get $150 per hour, that is very good. But the reality in a larger firm is the only way you are going to get is to have junior engineers doing the bulk of the project at $95/hr AND have them work a bunch of free overtime hours (which they won't do) to get the job done. Buy the time you add in the $175/hr for the senior engineer to basically redo the whole thing or all the stuff that the junior engineers didn't get right the first time around, you are well under $100/per hr. However, for a small one or two person firm, I guess it would be easy to get $125 per hour minimum if the persons have a lot of experience in custom residential and really know their stuff where they can just crank it out.
To answer the OP's question, our firm treats residential fee proposals like any other, hence we don't usually get any residential single-family work! If we can't get at least 1.5% of the estimated construction cost, we won't do it. However, I do at least one on my own time "on the side" each year because I love it so much.
It constantly amazes me how "rich guys" are willing to pay a contractor $1,500,000 for a custom home, but aren't willing to pay a structural engineer $20,000 to do the design work.
For the record, I love high-end custom residential. It is the most interesting and challenging engineering experiences to be had. All the different materials -- CMU, wood, steel moment frames, concrete, cold-formed steel, structural glass, structural aluminum -- all rolled into one project. And the wind and seismic analysis is crazy (which I love) with the odd shapes that a lot of these houses have. If not for the money consideration, I would do "rich guy houses" over a hospital, school, warehouse, or bridge any day. But from a business perspective, they are money losing propositions for medium and large size firms. As idecharlotte says, if you can get $150 per hour, that is very good. But the reality in a larger firm is the only way you are going to get is to have junior engineers doing the bulk of the project at $95/hr AND have them work a bunch of free overtime hours (which they won't do) to get the job done. Buy the time you add in the $175/hr for the senior engineer to basically redo the whole thing or all the stuff that the junior engineers didn't get right the first time around, you are well under $100/per hr. However, for a small one or two person firm, I guess it would be easy to get $125 per hour minimum if the persons have a lot of experience in custom residential and really know their stuff where they can just crank it out.
To answer the OP's question, our firm treats residential fee proposals like any other, hence we don't usually get any residential single-family work! If we can't get at least 1.5% of the estimated construction cost, we won't do it. However, I do at least one on my own time "on the side" each year because I love it so much.
It constantly amazes me how "rich guys" are willing to pay a contractor $1,500,000 for a custom home, but aren't willing to pay a structural engineer $20,000 to do the design work.
idecharlotte
Structural
Lion06- Answer is yes, a 5,000 sf house in a low wind/ low earthquake area could be throughly designed and detailed in under 10 hours, usually about 6 to 8 for me. My quickest was a 10,000sf box in 3 hours. It takes a good understanding of how much detailing the designer is going to do versus what you need to do. The last design I did last week was 4800 sf. I had drawn about 8 unique details and a couple boiler plate details that I did on CAD only because the designer had no details whatsoever. The framing plan was done by hand on the designer's drawings. Total time invested was about 8 hours. I charged $1100. Everyone was happy.
I will say, it takes at least 3 years of nothing but residential to be able to crank them out that fast. I do not use spreadsheets or software, just my HP48 calculator on my Iphone and a few design tables. If you don't do it every day I could see how residential would not be profitable, but it works for me.
I have also done commercial work, bridges and high rises. I find residential to be far more enjoyable because it's far less "red tape" in the design process and turn around is quick.
I will say, it takes at least 3 years of nothing but residential to be able to crank them out that fast. I do not use spreadsheets or software, just my HP48 calculator on my Iphone and a few design tables. If you don't do it every day I could see how residential would not be profitable, but it works for me.
I have also done commercial work, bridges and high rises. I find residential to be far more enjoyable because it's far less "red tape" in the design process and turn around is quick.
I have so much to say in response to those comments from GoodDeal but I will follow the current trend and keep the topic back in line with the original post. I may start a new thread to cover this other topic.
Anyway, I think the real issue is that often companies will quote to do more than the client wants or to work on types of structures that they are not fluent and efficient at designing.
idecharlotte seems to have the right idea about these things.
Anyway, I think the real issue is that often companies will quote to do more than the client wants or to work on types of structures that they are not fluent and efficient at designing.
idecharlotte seems to have the right idea about these things.
idecharlotte
Structural
I do calculate every beam I size and any special connections, shear walls, etc. But each beam takes less than 30 seconds to size with design tables, a good calculator and a few calculation "shortcuts" to speed the analysis. I do not write down any calculations as it takes too long. I keep it in my head or on the calculator. I also memorize all the point loads as I'm tracing them down so i don't have to write those on the plans. Writing slows down the process. Fortunately, our state does not require calculations to be submitted otherwise it would triple my time to record my design process for someone else. It also doesn't make since to keep calculations as a "record" for callbacks because if you have the plan, you can calculate anything quicker than it would be to retrieve the information from stacks of calculations.
idcharlotte,
I have often contemplated the same thing. If the sizing is wrong, does having calculations make you any less liable?
The only thing I would say is that you must have a good memory as I wouldnt remember all the point loads e.t.c.
Also, if you are delayed halfway through how do you remember how far you got and what you have checked?
I have often contemplated the same thing. If the sizing is wrong, does having calculations make you any less liable?
The only thing I would say is that you must have a good memory as I wouldnt remember all the point loads e.t.c.
Also, if you are delayed halfway through how do you remember how far you got and what you have checked?
UnthoughtKnown
Structural
IdeCharlotte
I think if you're designing LVL's, steel beams, etc. in a complicated large residential home that eventually you will make a mistake that will come back to bite you.
There's no way you can design a complicated home properly and economically speeding through half baked quick calcs, not chasing loads through, recording them, etc. Further more when there is a change, something not built quite right, etc. it's cumbersome to not have decent calcs to reference and could further foster mistakes.
I think if you're designing LVL's, steel beams, etc. in a complicated large residential home that eventually you will make a mistake that will come back to bite you.
There's no way you can design a complicated home properly and economically speeding through half baked quick calcs, not chasing loads through, recording them, etc. Further more when there is a change, something not built quite right, etc. it's cumbersome to not have decent calcs to reference and could further foster mistakes.
idecharlotte
Structural
I'm still performing calculations. I'm just not writing them down. So I wouldn't say there is an absence of calculations. My job as an engineer is to get the answers needed in order for the structure to meet Code. My job is not to show how I got the answers. Why would I make fewer mistakes writing it down if the calculations are the same? In 12 years I've made 2 mistakes that cost about $2k each to fix. Those mistakes were made early in my career when I was still writing everything down.
^unthoughtknown: There are many short cuts in beam design that can be taken to save time while arriving at the same answer. So to say it can't be done just means you haven't done it. I also find it more cumbersome to look through calculations than to reanalyze a situation should a change occur. I've developed a quick method of residential design that works, meets Code, and is profitable. That doesn't make it unprofessional, incorrect, or risky.
^unthoughtknown: There are many short cuts in beam design that can be taken to save time while arriving at the same answer. So to say it can't be done just means you haven't done it. I also find it more cumbersome to look through calculations than to reanalyze a situation should a change occur. I've developed a quick method of residential design that works, meets Code, and is profitable. That doesn't make it unprofessional, incorrect, or risky.
I've actually found wood to require probably the most involved calculations of any material - especially connections (not counting Simpson hangers). Maybe not for the typical floor joist or stud wall, but a free-standing wood post, or a multi-ply wood column, beam columns (with all the Fex, Fey, Emins)....... it can get very involved. At least that's my limited experience with wood.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question