Archtect Stamping Structural Drawings 3

[Alexk2]

I recently came across structural drawings in NYC stamped by an architect. Does anyone know if that is legal? The building is a 3 story steel framed structure. There were major issues in the design that made me wonder how that is allowed.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[KootK]

It's legal in Illinois.

I like to debate structural engineering theory -- a lot. If I challenge you on something, know that I'm doing so because I respect your opinion enough to either change it or adopt it.

 

[Lomarandil]

I don't know specifically about NYS or NYC, but in general, many jurisdictions allow architects to provide structural engineering services -- at least for common structures (e.g. not skyscrapers, hospitals, schools).

 

[Triangled]

"Thanks for the incite. "

Um
uhhh...
I believe, my friend, you might be providing, with your first ever post, the 'incite' in this forum.
But, legally speaking, I yield to the others above...

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Do most states have a requirement that architects only practice within their expertise?

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[Ron]

Most states allow incidental overlap between architects and engineers; however, there are limitations and in the event of a question, the individual must show that they have adequate background, experience and expertise to practice in the overlap. Much of what I do has to do with building facades. I often get challenged in deposition that I'm practicing architecture by providing failure investigation and remediation design of the facade (usually failed stucco systems, but also includes brick and stone veneers, masonry and a variety of other facade materials. I handle both the waterproofing aspects and the structural aspects, mainly because I think they are inseparable in many cases.

If you have reason to question the structural integrity of the architect's work, you have an obligation to bring it up. Three stories and steel framing would likely be outside that overlap zone. It is common to see architects handle a single story masonry building with open web joists, but 3 stories of open steel framing can be a different ball game.

 

[XR250]

It is allowed in NC, but most of the local inspectors still require an SE.
IMHO, the only Architect worthy of stamping structural drawings is Mike Brady (may he R.I.P)

 

[PEinc]

What's the problem? Everyone knows architects can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING!

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[BUGGAR]

fRANK lOYDD wRIGHT.

 

[MotorCity]

I have always found it interesting that the reverse is not true....ever see an engineer (legally) seal an architectural set of drawings? Especially considering that engineering is science based and architecture is based on color schemes

 

[klaus.]

Architect is above Engineer...as usual

Have you ever seen an engineer being honored at an opening ceremony


best regards
Klaus

 

[PEinc]

Most people think they know what architects do; few really know what engineers do (essentially, the hard part for the architects). It's our own fault. Be visible, speak up, show up, toot your own horn.

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[8thStreet]

I agree with PEinc. It our responsibility to make sure we are recognized.

 

[fel3]

In California, architects can design small/simple building structures under their license. However, I haven't looked up the exact language to know how much they can do before needing to call on and then abuse a licensed structural engineer.

One of my cousins earned a BA in architecture from UC Berkeley in the early 1980s, just a little behind my BS in civil engineering from the far more esteemed CSU Fresno.

As I recall, she had two semesters of calculus (to my three semesters plus one semester of DifEqs), two semesters of mid-level physics (to my three semesters of top-level physics), Strength of Materials (similar to my course), and one semester of basic structural analysis (similar to my first structures course). Somewhere in there, she also learned how to read beam span tables so she wouldn't have do any calculations. She started her career in custom homes, so the beam span tables were put to good use. She later moved into commercial building design and laboraties and had structural engineers to boss around.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[EngineeringEric]

I agree with Ron (as usual, no explanation mark needed for this one): overlap is inevitable. But you are describing something beyond overlap. I think it is your responsibility to inform and possibly burn a bridge... If what is stated and sealed is dangerous then I would report them to the states board; if it is just a bad design... maybe not, but that is something only you know.

It is fun pointing out when architects due stupid things in my eyes. When structurally speaking it is easy but they accept it... When I point out their flaws in an envelope however they grow fangs and try to lash back... most time they know better just ran out of budget and didn't detail or used a loophole performance spec. but still!

 

[TLHS]

Engineers take responsibility for architectural items on occasion, especially in industrial structures. Some fire stuff, geometric requirements, things like that. There's more to architecture than some engineers seem to pretend. A bunch of that stuff can get pretty tricky to work out. There are some things in Canada that can be signed off by either, and some that specifically require an engineer or architect.

As with most things of this sort, it relies on the judgement of the professional to understand what their limitations are.

It doesn't make sense for an engineer experienced in that industry to retain an architect to determine fire exit requirements for a low occupancy industrial building, and it doesn't make sense for an architect experienced in that industry to retain an engineer to specify a steel beam in residential construction.

 

[sandman21]

In California an Arch. can stamp anything except structural portions of hospitals under their license, not just simple buildings. But as always they can not sign items which are outside their area of expertise.

 

[WoodDesignCat]

In California I assumed architects had the same restrictions as unlicensed individuals for structural plans, but apparently they "may design any building of any type EXCEPT the structural portion of a hospital." as sandman21 stated.

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/pubs/building_design_auth.pdf

. Does that mean that architects are allowed to structurally design schools, but engineers have to have their Structural License before the can design schools? That seems backwards...

Either way, they can still get sued for incompetence.

 

[fel3]

Thanks sandman21 and WoodDesignCat for that info about CA architecture regulations. I'm more scared now.

Actually, I have worked for or in parallel with many architects over the years (mostly doing site designs for state and federal prisons, buildings for the US Navy, a private truck terminal, etc.) and on every project the architect delegated the structural design to a real structural engineer. They kept him in stocks and barely fed him, but he was there.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[sandman21]

Yes, an Architect can structurally design a school and yes a PE civil is required to have an SE to design a school. Cant say I have ever heard of one trying. I know of a few Arch./SE, who do structurally design.