Are there true advantages in degrees from prestigious universities? 18

[OHIOMatt]

I have a daughter that is a senior in high school. She has done very well academically and with standardized testing. She has applied to a wide range of universities, from small, prestigious schools to large state schools. She plans to major in engineering (of some sort) and has a desire to pursue advanced degrees in the future. Does a degree from a more prestigious school help? Is it an advantage to acceptance to graduate school? Does it open doors when looking for your first job? The real trade off is the upfront cost. I am willing to make this investment if it provides a true advantage. I know that once you get into your career, that performance is what matters. I have done quite a bit of research on the topic, but the conclusions seem highly subjective. I know there is a wide range of professionals on this site, and am interested in your opinions.

Thanks!

For the record, I graduated from a state university and have never seen it as a hinderance to my engineering career, but I may be oblivious to opportunities that others had.

 

[cvg]

I went to a reputable state school. it is ranked highly in my field and produces a lot of solid research in that field over the years. the tuition was low. but it didnt help with the job search, i got my first job because I was computer literate, which not many were back then. i actually produced my resume on my own computer in 1985 which was fairly unusual...

 

[Compositepro]

Highly rated schools are highly rated for valid reasons. They have higher admission standards, better faculty, more educational resources. So it is perfectly logical that anyone searching for above average people would recruit graduates from good schools. The other major benefit of going to a good school is that you will develop an above average social circle, which is the key to success in life. This is just a matter of statistics, but there are no guarantees.

Students who are not competitive self-starters may not do well in in these "top" schools and will not benefit from the experience.

 

[bcd]

When assisting your child in college selection, do not focus on the school ranking or reputation. Its a trap that can be a very costly mistake.

Best advice I got and followed was to ensure your child is in the upper half of the students at the school in grades and test scores. Top 25% is even better if possible. Great book by Malcolm Gladwell talks about this. Forgot which one. Per Gladwell's book, studies show that if your child gets into a top school, and is not in the upper half, they will struggle to keep up, lose confidence in themselves, and the chance they will graduate with the degree they desired is low. Most change majors to something less competitive or change schools. The study also showed that a student in a 2nd tier school who led the pack academically made more money in their career long-term than one who just made it through the top school.

 

[jari001]

The Gladwell book is David and Goliath. I graduated in 2014 and I went to a school that boasted a top 10 ranking in ChemE and (more importantly) gave me the most financial aid and academic scholarship money. My advice on the non-academic side is to select a school that your daughter will feel comfortable at from a living situation perspective and offers more than a few extra-curricular activities (helped me manage my stress tremendously to have a reliable source of fun to recharge that didn't involve hauling drunken friends from parties). From a money perspective, you have to really dig to get all the money you can out of schools. I got an extra 5k added to my fin-aid package from my chosen school after a couple weeks of being a pain in the rear end.

From an academics standpoint, I do agree somewhat with the advice in David and Goliath but don't take that to mean go to the school that seems the easiest. Find a school that balances the stretch she has to make to graduate well along with how good the instruction staff seem to be. If I had known about the ratemyprofessors website before Sophomore year, my Freshman year would have been a lot different.

 

[IRstuff]

Do people sit around in their 30s and 40s and still banter about what school they went to?

No, but, some companies go through a skills-mix exercise, or something, every so often, and you have to submit a resume, or tell your team what school you went to, etc., and then word gets around that you went to blah-blah U. THAT happened when I was already 30 yrs into my career. "THAT explains why he's so weird." ;-)

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[CWB1]

Nope, not in the least. With few exceptions for office politics, industry IME tends to be very skills and ability oriented, not focused on pedantic crap like where one went to school. I received my undergrad from a tiny state school that was mostly a retirement gig for engineers who didn't want to retire. With one exception, the staff all were top professionals, had completed Phd's, held extremely high standards, and refused to let TAs teach. They failed the typical "rankings" simply bc they regularly failed students, doing both the students and industry a favor. If you graduated the ME program, you had demonstrated capability not only in understanding basic engineering concepts but also proven ability to use modern design and analytical tools, DFMA, and could even hold your own in the shop bc you had been fabricating lab setups and projects individually throughout. My first position after college was working for a Fortune 50's research dept near a "top 5" engineering school. The research dept's senior manager's reason for hiring me was something that I mistook for common among fresh grads - motivation. I completed a bachelor's in three years, 32 credits beyond the requirement. At the time I knew three CAD packages, two FEAs, and a CFD to a reasonably professional standard and I had enough skill and knowledge otherwise to jump onto his team and hold my own immediately. Needless to say it was a culture shock when I started the local MS program and teaching bc like other "top" schools, the program standards and students there were amazingly lackluster. The required coursework was entirely theoretical so many students learned just enough theory to pass the test and not much otherwise, they didn't have to spend any time in the shop nor did they have to learn anything about modern design or analytical tools. They did everything including capstone projects in large groups which resulted in many graduates who never took a CAD course and had always been the "powerpoint guy" or "report writer" and never did anything requiring thought. They also did not have a time limit on graduation, several students had been full-time for 6+ years and had taken quite a few classes multiple times. IIRC my alma-mater's time limit on full-time students was five years or they were out.

If you want a shock, read how the various magazine "rankings" are completed with a truly open mind then ask yourself if higher GPAs, degree completion rates, reputation among other academics, or the other "standards" used indicate a high quality education or a waste of money. I would argue the "better" rankings mostly indicate a lower standards and a lousy education. To be fair, I have worked with some really good graduates from "top" schools but many more who weren't so no, I wouldn't give you an extra nickel for a MIT, CalTech, Purdue, or otherwise grad, and I have had them all for junior engineers and colleagues.

My daughter does not plan to major in civil. She wants to get a degree in something more "high tech".

I usually counsel younger folks that "tech" and manufacturing tend to be very urban-centric and that they should base their lives around where and the type of lifestyle they want to live, not a job. I thoroughly enjoy product development but as someone happiest in the mountains, I do occasionally consider pivoting to civil or other fields due to location and ease of working for oneself.

 

[ProEpro]

Every response here was very good. A couple of points I have not seen.

Many companies only recruit at a few colleges. Look at where the industry she wants to be in recruits.

Personally I think participation in collegiate design competitions is overlooked. Some prestigious schools don't participate or aren't competitive.

I went to the highly ranked engineering school in my state. It has the nam e recognition nesicary to get through HR to get an interview. However, 5 times my boss has been from the not so well known Engineering Technology school. In discussions with them my degree is worth more outside the state than theirs. If HR has to google the school it hurts.

I can not believe a private school is 10X more valuable than a public college unless you want to be a lawyer or dr that gets paid more for the diploma.

Co-Op programs can be a game changer for preparation a career. Also many Co-Ops discover what they really want is not where they started. So look at who has the best Co-Op or at least internships available from on campus recruiting.

Don't let her get scared if the engineering schools don't have enough girls.

Congratulate her on the hardwork that gave her the chance to consider this.

 

[IRstuff]

In some engineering disciplines, internships are a MUST; both my sons had computer science internships every summer, during college. Both sons got, and accepted, offers from their final summer internships.

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[SLTA]

So as a female engineer - let me say that having graduated from a REALLY good engineering school made people take me more seriously, when they were tempted to pass over me as a "cute little girl who thinks she can do engineering"... (at their own peril!)

I'd get the "well, honey, where'd you go to school?" and I'd answer and they would suddenly be willing to listen to me.

I hate that it matters, but yes, for women, it does.

Best of luck to your daughter and I'm cheering for her!

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[IRstuff]

I get that too; they'd think I have crazy ideas, except for that sheepskin from that school ;-)

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[OHIOMatt]

SLTA, thanks for your perspective. While I do not face the issues that you do, I am very aware of them. My wife is an engineer as well. She has had to battle for respect her entire career. We met in school, so she has a degree from state u as well. I had not thought of this being a way to gain more credibility in the field, but I can see were it could be a benefit.

For some additional information, it is our plan/goal for our daughter to graduate from school with little to no debt. My wife and I have been working and planning for this, since before she was born. Some may disagree with our approach, but we have approached parenting with the idea that we provide tools, resources, and guidance to provide our children with the highest chance of success (it is up to them to utilize the resources provided). In return, we have asked and in some cases demanded that they dedicate themselves to schooling, community service and extracurricular activities. My wife and I have tried to live our lives as examples of what delayed gratification looks like. My oldest daughter has embraced these principles. She works harder than any kid I know. She has tremendous intellectual curiosity, and she has a desire to succeed. She plays sports and is a great team mate and friend, but she refuses to engage in activities that would jeopardize her academic standing.

You all have provided valuable insight. I truly appreciate this community.

 

[IRstuff]

Given that applications are due within the coming month, I won't bother to harp too much on RANKING for extra-curricular activities; being recognized at state or national level puts your student in a much better position, but stay away from violin or piano, simply because there are just way too many of those.

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[CWB1]

In some engineering disciplines, internships are a MUST

I would be surprised if anybody said that internships were not. Most hiring managers list a 2-3 year minimum experience requirement in entry level job ads today specifically to weed out lazy grads. Most students not hired prior to graduation and those struggling to be hired afterward also usually had little/no working experience during college.

 

[Ron247]

I love SLTA's perspective. And I agree. Women most likely need everything they can get in this field to highlight their accomplishments. Prejudice will exist until until Webster's defines Prejudice as "An archaic term that applies to people who were not as smart and fair as they thought they were".

But here is my question. Being from the deep south, who is viewed as less competent, a female with no southern accent or a male with a really heavy Jethro Bodine accent? I ask the question to spur debate, because I know from past experience, I have been judged after saying about 2 words, and they were not "Uncle Jed". With that I state, I really feel sorry for females with a heavy southern accent.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I once had a supervisor working for me, she was from Atlanta, GA, and a graduate of Georgia Tech, and yes, she had the accent to go with it. We were working in the Detroit office at the time, and trust me, the people who got to know her learned very quickly that she could more then hold-up her end of the log. In fact, after about a year, I lost her to a hot project at corporate headquarters in Saint Louis.

I wish I could say that it ended well. While she was more than capable of doing the job that she had been handed, she ran into something that unfortunately has been a problem for individuals like her, that is smart, good looking, single women. Note that this was back in the mid-80's. While there was never any issues with her abilities and she was on the fast track, she ran into a sexual harassment problem. Now while there was no evidence that it ever interfered with her job nor her movement up the corporate ladder, it did have an impact on her mental state, and since the perpetrator was a highly regarded corporate executive, she decided to quit rather than have to put up with the crap (I said this was the mid-80's). She went back home and joined the family business, general contracting, and has done quite well for herself, eventually forming her own company and working her head off and loving every minute of it (we happen to share birthdays, month and day, and one of us calls the other every year to wish the other a happy birthday so we catch-up at least once a year). BTW, the "highly regarded corporate executive" finally crashed and burned and it wasn't a pretty sight, unfortunately it didn't happened until a couple of years after Ann had left the company. The really sad part is that while Ann has been successful in her business career, she never got over the personal scars, never marrying or even coming close, which I always felt bad about and wishing I had known what was happening to her back then, but she was no longer in my group, I got transferred back to SoCal, and when I finally did learn what had happened (from her) she had already gone back home.

Sorry about the sad tale, but...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[IRstuff]

Most hiring managers list a 2-3 year minimum experience requirement in entry level job ads

Not sure how THAT works; 2 yrs = 8 summers

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[GregLocock]

Yeah, I worked one year before uni and every long vac, that'd be 1.5 years .

Cheers

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[IRstuff]

My sons did internships every summer, but only the last two summers were meaningfully related to their majors; often, at the post-freshman year summer, you've really not yet learned enough to be productive in your major. So, if you're normal, you've only got barely 6 months of meaningful experience by graduation; both sons were lucky enough to get offers from the companies they interned at.

I don't know that companies necessarily want "experience," per se; they possibly want people that have had meaningful work experience to weed out potential problem employees.

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[GregLocock]

I think there's a perception problem with internships. Students want them to be relevant to their amazing future career trajectory designing interstellar sub-atomic photocopiers, we just want to know that if you are plonked at a desk you'll be able to figure out where the printer is and how to make coffee without bugging everybody else.


Cheers

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[CWB1]

Not sure how THAT works; 2 yrs = 8 summers

Summer internships haven’t been “a thing” in many years. When I graduated a decade ago, working full time throughout your final two years + summers was already common as it is today. I’ve had interns that worked full time from their first semester onward, $20/hr vs minimum wage is a good motivator even if the work is boring at times. My current intern just started her second year, and while it doesn’t seem like they have much to offer you’d be amazed at their immediate usefulness handling grunt work in the “other” aspects of engineering like product definition, project management, warranty claims, process engineering, test, print approvals, etc. I’ve also had several that took advantage of the online corporate training and experience around them to become very talented design engineers by graduation. Incompetent management might be happy hiring junior engineers for peanuts who can’t contribute much, but most employers and staff want grads fully capable day 1 and are willing to pay for their efforts.