Are there true advantages in degrees from prestigious universities? 18

[OHIOMatt]

I have a daughter that is a senior in high school. She has done very well academically and with standardized testing. She has applied to a wide range of universities, from small, prestigious schools to large state schools. She plans to major in engineering (of some sort) and has a desire to pursue advanced degrees in the future. Does a degree from a more prestigious school help? Is it an advantage to acceptance to graduate school? Does it open doors when looking for your first job? The real trade off is the upfront cost. I am willing to make this investment if it provides a true advantage. I know that once you get into your career, that performance is what matters. I have done quite a bit of research on the topic, but the conclusions seem highly subjective. I know there is a wide range of professionals on this site, and am interested in your opinions.

Thanks!

For the record, I graduated from a state university and have never seen it as a hinderance to my engineering career, but I may be oblivious to opportunities that others had.

 

[weldstan]

In my second job, this one with a major EPC firm, it was clear that new hire graduates from the "RIGHT" schools had easier access to employment and a higher starting salary. If they stayed with that firm, and were good at their job, they were more apt to be promoted. But this was 50 years ago.

 

[IRstuff]

Not much different than large law firms hiring ONLY from Harvard Law.

But, not all companies are like that; we tend to hire local, mostly CSULB or CSUF. But, I think that's possibly because we're too cheap to hire up; of course, we probably expect that high flyers will get bored and leave, so that's always a piece of the equation. I personally tend to be biased against anyone changing jobs too often.

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[MacGyverS2000]

My wife and I have tried to live our lives as examples of what delayed gratification looks like. My oldest daughter has embraced these principles. She works harder than any kid I know. She has tremendous intellectual curiosity, and she has a desire to succeed. She plays sports and is a great team mate and friend, but she refuses to engage in activities that would jeopardize her academic standing.

I think this is a pretty accurate description of my family dynamic. My step-daughter had to choose between multiple sports she was really good at and enjoyed (volleyball, basketball, and softball). Despite being 5-foot nothing, she is a beast on the court, and very aggressive/fast (the same applies to her studies). In the end, softball won out... she has been told by multiple coaches she could make it in Div I with some practice, we nudged her towards Div II/III schools so she could have time for studies, knowing she would not be the type to try to play professionally (in the end she wants to manage a team, not play on it). She has also mentioned possibly going for her law degree after her Sports Management degree is in the bag. She is highly driven and ultra-competitive, even more so than her mother.

Because of that drive, I have had zero second thoughts on purchasing her a new vehicle, paying for her schooling, etc. I know she appreciates it, and she will walk away at graduation debt free. Of course, I'm quite happy she decided on a school that was ~$35k/yr rather than some of her options that were ~$85k/yr

Summer internships are still a big thing in my field... the company I work for brings in ~15/yr, just for the summer months, and many receive an offer. I cannot imagine, however, going to school full-time while trying to work similar hours at a job. I did full-time school and work while studying towards my Masters, and I do NOT recommend it to anyone who doesn't have to. I view nothing wrong with a student being a student and only that, but they should be doing SOMETHING at all times (if you're not in school for a semester, you should be working), which is why I prefer to see summer internships on a resume.

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[csk62]

2014 BS grad. In my opinion, there is too much fixation on the sticker price of private schools. For people of meager to modest means, financial aid is substantial for schools with decent endowments. I attended a "prestigious" school with a current tuition sticker price in the 50k range, at a price below in_state tuition at StateU. I am very happy with the quality of education I received and based on the many stories I have heard about the lack of funding for undergrad lab supplies, and excessive use of underprepared TAs for lectures at StateU, I think the overall decision was a slam dunk in my particular situation.

I agree with other posters that internships are really the golden ticket for engineering jobs upon graduation. They were used as try-outs for the big leagues at my first employer.

 

[ldeem]

Interesting thread, I went to a small private school in Florida for by BS in Civil. This was the early/mid 90's and most classes were taught by tenured professors. The advantage to small school was the small class sizes and strong relationships developed with classmates and professors. The downside was very little recruiting at the school by large employers. Out of my graduating class of 25 or so in Civil I was one of the few (maybe only) person with a job before graduation. In my case the job was with a major firm in offshore engineering where I had interned with one of their government contracting units. I think it also helped I was a veteran so older and more experienced in dealing with people than my peers. Plus when I went to interview in Houston the department head was also a veteran, albeit a former officer in the Turkish army.

I would second (maybe third) is to look at the job placement history when comparing schools. Larger more prestigious schools seem to have a national presence in recruiting where as smaller regional schools are more regional.

I am in Ohio as well and most engineers I meet in my area (Cincinnati) all went to UC.

 

[CWB1]

I have had zero second thoughts on purchasing her a new vehicle, paying for her schooling, etc. I know she appreciates it, and she will walk away at graduation debt free. Of course, I'm quite happy she decided on a school that was ~$35k/yr...

So long as parents' can afford to pay cash, I don't take issue with anybody spending their own money on their kid. The part that has bitten a significant portion of millennials in the ass however is that their parents either chose not to pay cash up front or had a change of fortune and could not afford to pay down the loan by graduation, leaving the student with a big debt on their credit report and thus largely unemployable at graduation. Probably the worst bit of parental advice since "any degree is better than no degree" is when parents suggest that >$50k debt at graduation is no big deal.

 

[IRstuff]

Certainly, some of the more popular degrees pay so little that it would be insanity to pay top-dollar for the degree.

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[CWB1]

Eh, its just another luxury, and the practical usefulness of luxuries will always be questioned but not the enjoyment of them. An overpriced degree that's used is still more practical than a cheap degree that's not. As moltenmetal and others remind us occasionally, there are many engineering grads who never become engineers, so even the jokes about the usefulness of art degrees vs engineering degrees do have their holes as some art majors do earn decent incomes from art. To each their own.

Personally, I dont believe adding $100k to the cost of most folks' degrees would ever be recoverable in income in the first few years of a career when folks might actually care where you went to school, but if the kid's dream is to go Ivy and they really understand the monetary tradeoffs then so be it. The only issue I take is when clueless parents or faculty provide lousy guidance based on yesteryear rather than pushing the kid to determine the reality of today. My first semester of college at a tiny StateU campus, both Engineering 101 and Business 101 required students to write various reports/business plans for the next few years of their life so they learned about various niches' income potential, the cost/benefit/usefulness of their degree, and how the hiring process actually worked. Probably bc it would cost some programs their students, that bit of education is somewhat rare today and I have known many who took for granted the income potential and difficulty of landing a well-paid position in their field. My personal favorites are when students do something which is a major disqualifier at most employers (drugs, crime, big debt, etc) or simply embarrassing like being inappropriately dressed for interviews. The bottom line I see today is that once a kid goes to college they start being judged as an adult by the rest of the world, regardless if parents or local faculty choose to treat them as such.

 

[IRstuff]

Let's not forget the raging kegger's streamed on their social accounts, or bad tweets, as things not to do.

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[ProEpro]

This is why I do not understand the huge political push to reward incompetence by forgiving massive student loans. It just punishes the people who made better choices or worse worked harder.

 

[LiftDivergence]

In my personal opinion, when it comes to engineering, ABET has levelled the playing field somewhat. Obviously it is in the nation's best interest to have all engineering graduates up to a certain level of knowledge when they graduate, for safety reasons.. Hence, ABET accreditation. NO matter where you go, as long as ABET has signed off, you can guarantee you will be taught some minimum standard. Look at the curricula for a BS at any state school and then look at the same degree curricula at MIT. They are virtually identical.

Now, you could argue that a "prestigious" school will have more seasoned, better professors, better labs, etc. But I'm not actually sure that is true all the time. I have seen a lot of open courseware lectures at some top schools and some of those professors are awful.

Another thing I think people ignore is that for engineering undergraduates, you will likely spend 95-100 percent of your time working. At least for me, so many credits were required just to graduate that I never had less than 18 in a semester, usually over 20. You have to look at where the supposed advantages are and if you will even be able to make use of them if your normal schedule is so jam-packed you can't do anything.

I got into a well ranked school in MA and they offered me a ~30k grant. Even after that, it was still more expensive that my in-state school, which I opted for. Never regretted it.

I have met many engineers from "prestigious" schools who weren't the brightest bulbs on the tree to be honest.

Remember, it is more about the student / engineer than the school.

For undergrad I would prioritize cost. Save your selection of prestigious schools for a graduate degree if you want that. It means more in that case because schools have more specialization.

If you can't go to a school without coming away >20k in debt, time to look elsewhere.

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[TheTick]

It just punishes the people who made better choices or worse worked harder.

In what way? What, exactly, is being taken from the people who made "better" choices?

 

[IRstuff]

In what way?

A loan represents some present value, and forgiving the loan erases that present value, so if the loan is a government backed loan, the government pays off the loan to the lender, and taxpayers foot that bill. If it's a purely private loan, the lender declares it as a bad loan and reports it as a loss on their taxes, assuming it doesn't bankrupt them outright. That loss represents a loss in tax revenue, which the taxpayers eventually foot the bill somewhere, and/or the shareholders of the lender get less value for their shares or gets their shares erased in the case of bankruptcy, etc., etc., etc. Furthermore, that erased PV means the lender has less money to lend for other people who could borrowed and repaid on time.

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[Turn_of_the_Screw]

Some things that may be true:

1. All things equal, GPA matters more than school. A 4.0 from StateU looks better than a 3.5 from PrestigiousU.

2. A quality co-op rotation or internship is much more valuable than a degree from PrestigiousU by itself.

3. Managers like hiring from schools at their level. StateU managers will find PrestigiousU grads think they know too much and want a higher salary, compared to another StateU grad, and vice versa.

4. On average smarter, harder working kids tend to get into better Universities. So, on average, those kids end up becoming smarter, harder working college students. They, in turn, become smarter harder working engineers, on average.

I have yet to meet an engineer from StateU that thought they would have had a better career if they went to PrestigiousU. Additionally, I have yet to meet an engineer from PrestigiousU that did not claim that it had a major impact on their career trajectory, though I cannot refute SLTA's point above.

 

[TheTick]

IRStuff--swing and a miss. Actually two misses with one swing. Quite an accomplishment

You're describing harm to parties other than the ones I asked about.

 

[IRstuff]

Those that made "better" choices are taxpayers.

I paid off my loans, am a taxpayer, own some stock, so I'm definitely going to pay somewhere for any loan forgiveness or defaults.

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[Turn_of_the_Screw]

Student Loan forgiveness will cost every taxpayer more, whether in increased tax revenue or in budget cuts to other programs. This is the same as any other federal program, with the glaring exception that it does not benefit the working class at large, and selectively benefits middle-class workers who may have been capable of paying them off eventually.

A refundable tax credit up to $10,000 for absolutely anyone that has ever taken out a loan might make more sense than just forgiving loans that are on the books, but you are still leaving out those who chose not to bear the expense of going to college. Many people enter the workforce right after high school and/or go to a trade school or community college making a conscious choice not to go into debt for a college education. Imagine how many would have attended college instead if they knew their loans would be forgiven.

For the record, federally backed student loan forgiveness exists today in the form of income-based repayment. If you make honest payments on your loans for 25 years (I think) the rest of your loans evaporate.

 

[TheTick]

Sounds like trickle-down economics only works when giving money to people who already have it.

 

[TheTick]

I paid off my loans (and my wife's). It would be nice to have that money back.

I'm just not going to go into crybaby tantrum mode when examining whether it is beneficial to the country to pursue student loan forgiveness.

 

[CWB1]

Its likely difficult to quantify, but I wonder how "better" schools' staff experience in industry compares to their peers at "lesser" schools. Anecdotally, I would suspect that those teaching at "better" schools' would have more years as full-time academics and less full-time working experience in industry than their "lesser" peers. Given that the purpose of education is to prepare students for careers which generally dont involve working in education, an argument could be made that more industry experience ~= better teachers. Interestingly enough, modern K-12 and collegiate education philosophies both argue the opposite but for different reasons, that real-world experience is irrelevant vs coursework in education (K-12) or vs coursework in your subject area (collegiate). In either case, its interesting to note that our education system seems bent on maintaining a gap between academia and industry rather than bridging it to prepare students for reality.