Are you a Structural Engineer? 2

[JayZ12]

I've been struggling with an answer to this question for sometime.

So say you are a licensed Professional Engineer that practices structural engineering. Obviously, you have passed the PE exam, but have not yet taken and passed the NCEES SE exam. Can you market yourself as a Structural Engineer in let's say Washington? Washington requires an SE for structures essentially classified as III and IV.

I've seen professionals list themselves as "Structural Engineers" in their email signatures when in fact they are only licensed as a "Professional Engineer".

I've chosen to put "Professional Engineer" with Structural Engineering (my department) listed below.

Thoughts?

 

[JAE]

AELLC - you can advocate all you want but each individual state will, and has, set their rules on terminology.

It is very difficult to change a state's laws/rules governing the engineering acts - especially with the titles. Utah is the most recent state I'm aware of that has converted to a partial practice act similar to California. Some other states have "title" acts where the title "SE" is restricted but the difference between SE and PE is nothing in terms of who can do what.

 

[rb1957]

back to my tangent ... i think anyone can call themselves an engineer (or lawyer or accountant) from their 1st amdmt rights, but only licensed engineers can practice engineering (as only licensed lawyers/accountants can practice lawyering(?)/accountancy).

ethically ... well i think there are two answers ...
1) if you aren't one (ie licensed) then you shouldn't call yourself one, or
2) if you believe you fulfill the requirements for being one then you've created the wiggle-room inside your head to allow yourself the ethical tolerance for calling yourself an engineer even if you aren't licensed.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[steellion]

I think that as long as you are not misrepresenting yourself, the semantics of being allowed to call oneself an "engineer" or a "structural engineer" are pretty silly. To me, if you graduated with an engineering degree, and are practicing engineering, you're an "engineer" regardless of whether you are licensed as a PE or an SE. I don't know how else a non-PE would describe their job. But I don't make the rules, states do.

JayZ, in your case, I would leave "Structural Engineer" in your job description, so that your role on the project team is clear. Below that you should add "Registered as a Professional Engineer in the following states: XX, XX, XX". That way, you representing yourself and your qualifications clearly, and I can't imagine a Board would beat you up on the ethics of that. You're not going to check with 50 state boards and write "Well, I'm considered a structural engineer in Pennsylvania and a structural design technician in Texas, and..."

 

[PUEngineer]

All S.E.s are structural engineers, but not all structural engineers are S.E.s. I suppose that only applies to states that recognize the S.E. license. I live and work primarily in a state without the S.E. requirement, I may feel differently if I worked in a state with the S.E. license.

 

[mtu1972]

PUEng - I like your logic. I've always been a proponent of Set Theory.

gjc

 

[RockEngineer]

"Structural Engineer in let's say Washington? Washington requires an SE for structures essentially classified as III and IV."

Don't forget local restrictions also. I'm licensed as a Civil PE in Washington but do a lot of residential structures. I can't do any structural engineering in the city of Seattle because they modified the IBC into the Seattle Building Code (SBC) and changed the requirements so that regardless of the type of structure, only licensed structural engineers can do structural engineering within the Seattle City Limits.

 

[AELLC]

Rock:

That doesn't make sense, SE's don't know how to do residential

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I'm taking the SE exam for licensure as a PE in the state of Maine in less than two weeks (gulp). Maine makes no distinction for SE at all. If When I pass do you think it would be improper to put PE, SE after my name? I would meet many (if not all) of the requirements for SE in some of the states that have SE designations and, in the area I would practice, they make no distinction.

(Back to studying...)

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural. Going to take the 1st part of the 16-hour SE test in April, wish me luck!

 

[steellion]

Pirate, you can only add SE after your name if you're licensed as an SE. You can get a Maine PE and an Illinois SE (I don't think Illinois has any additional testing requirements beyond passing the 16-hr test, but you do need to apply and get approved by the Illinois board).

 

[msquared48]

As a PE, if you have a firm, you can advertise in the State of Washington as performing structural engineering services, up to a point as previously mentioned, as PE's can legally do some structural engineering, and do.

However you cannot purport to be a structural engineer by putting "SE" in your personal signature block unless you have passed the SE test. In fact, my stamp specifically reads "Structural Engineer", not "Professional Engineer". Before getting my SE 33 years ago, it did say "Professional Engineer". I still have that stamp... Why? I don't know...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[fel3]

rb1957…

Here in California, it's OK for anyone to call him/herself an "engineer." However, it is not OK for anyone to call him/herself a "civil engineer", an "electrical engineer", a "structural engineer", etc. because the use of those titles is protected by law to those who are properly licensed by the state. In addition, the practice of some of those disciplines is also protected. In this case, the First Amendment does not supersede the legal requirement for licensure.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[PMR06]

The last company I worked for recently changed their email signature and business cards to remove "Structural Engineer" titles, replacing it simply with "Structural Engineering Department". Names were still suffixed with PE, SE, PEng, but they were subscripted with which states a person was a PE, an SE or which provinces a PEng. It looked clumsy at first but really removed any grey area... Score one for the legal department!

 

[JLNJ]

Mighty Pirate

It wouldn't be proper to put SE after your name until you are granted an SE license by a State which registers S.E.s. Just like it would not be proper to call yourself a Professional Engineer if no State has licensed you.

I have passed the SEII but since I never applied for licensure anywhere as an SE I don't use S.E. in my signature. (But my title at work is that of "Structural Engineer").

It's a little screwy. We could all be in the habit of putting where and how we are registered in all correspondence, but that's a little over the top. Medical Doctors and Lawyers don't state which State they are licensed by (most of the time). When a doctor leaves the State, it's not like he is no longer a doctor.

The imporatant thing is that you not solicit work under false pretenses.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

JLNJ: Hmmm, interesting. Not saying you're wrong but for the sake of counter-argument here's my original point of view.

Maine has no title restrictions on Structural Engineer or SE so I could use them inside Maine as much as I want if I was a licensed PE. I wouldn't be advertising outside of Maine but obviously might send an email or something outside of the state or be asked to do work outside of the state and possibly have to get licensed in that state. However, I don't believe I would be operating under false pretenses because having passed the SE exam and being a licensed PE in Maine I could get licensed in many states as an SE.

I guess another way of looking at it is people put SE after their name if they're licensed in Illinois lets say. However, they likely don't meet the requirements to be licensed in California but they don't put that in every little email or letter they send out, they simply say SE.

In the end, I will obviously strive to follow your important point of not soliciting work under false pretenses.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

 

[JStephen]

Pirate-
The Maine rules are the final word on what is acceptable in Maine. I think, though, that you'd find where a state doesn't license SE's as such, there would be correspondingly less meaning behind the letters anyway. There may also be a requirement to identify yourself as a PE.

The issue of using a PE title when carrying on correspondence in a state where you're not registered has come up before, and it is an awkward/gray area. Texas issued a clarification on it, I'll see if I can run that up here later.

 

[msquared48]

"The issue of using a PE title when carrying on correspondence in a state where you're not registered has come up before".,.

There is nothing wrong with that, as long as you stipulate which state you are licensed in, along with the corresponding title.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

So, basically, I could say "PE, SE" but in any correspondence, official letters, advertisements, etc. outside of Maine I could only say "PE Maine" and nothing else. Or I suppose I could say "Maine PE, SE" as long as the state doesn't have a title restriction on SE, but that would probably be confusing and/or misleading.

Maybe the best way to do it would be:
[Name] PE, SE
Licensed Maine Professional Engineer

It will just become really confusing if I get licensed in a bunch of states...

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.

 

[AELLC]

If Maine doesn't have SE class, then you say only PE, period.

As opposed to CA, if you have both PE and SE it makes more sense to say SE only. PE is understood.

The definition of a structural engineer: overdesign by a factor of 1.999, instead of the usual 2.

 

[msquared48]

Just don't say, "An engineer of many states". They'll think you need therapy.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

"If Maine doesn't have SE class, then you say only PE, period."

This seems to be the consensus. I'll have to ponder on this a bit but I suspect you guys are right.

Maine EIT, Civil/Structural.