Arguing without getting emotional 7

[Kinsrow]

My position as an engineer is really between the two tales. I'm the guy who take over the R&D idea and make it work. This involves assisting the R&D people on how to design thing that is manufacturable, cheap, easy to assemble, etc. I found my self that if I don't catch their mistakes then it is my fault. If I do catch their mistakes, I still have to fix it due to various reason like the product is way down the line and the tooling is already built, etc. Now here is the real issue, I always get pumped up whenever I get to the meeting and talked with these guys trying to convince them to change the design a little bit to accomodate for better cost, assembly, service, etc. It seems like no matter how I present the fact, I always got my self in the arguing mode that at the end I wanted to kick his butt so badly.

How do you present the fact without getting emotional and still being able to convince them. And if you do get into a debate, how do you stay calm and not take things personally.

Anyone has similar situation and how to cope this?

Kinsrow

 

[ziggi]

Ideally be clear and concise. I find that some quick points on what you want to change and why you want to do so, works. If they have counter arguments, take those into account, never assume that your view is always the right one.

Also people will always argue against doing more work if they're lazy. If they have no valid reason for arguing and if the responsibility ultimately rests on you, what you say goes.

In extreme cases don't even bother listening, unless their comments are substantial.

 

[BelspringKen]

Its hard not to get emotional when you are trying to persuade people to do something.

Always stick to the facts, and ask them "If you do it this way, what are the advantages?" when you are trying to change their method.

Then present your ideas, backing them up with the cost savings, easier assembly, etc.

Its not an easy thing to do, but when you can pull it off, its worthwhile.

 

[ctopher]

If I have a good argument, and have proof to back me up, I always send it in writing (memo or email) first, and save it. So, If others ignore me and problems pop up later and fingers are pointed my way, I show the letter.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks 06 4.1/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 06-21-06)

 

[tygerdawg]

Keep a cool head and don't get angry, no matter what. Enthusiasm and passion can be a good thing, within limits. Get therapy if this is a continuing problem because it will most likely drive you nuts and hurt your career. If you have the responsibility from company management to make designs manufacturable, then request that the mgt give you the authority (can be as simple as a verbal message from the boss to the troops). Learn conflict management , patience, and "the tricks" that are used to maneuver through the human emotional quagmire.

For example, I had to derail a poor design by a young, emotional "I'm right all the time" design engineer. I was a team member, but not his authority figure. But I needed to preserve his ego to be effective on the team. All the other gray haired guys with shop floor experience knew it wouldn't work long term, but he wouldn't back down, even though he was outnumbered. I requested we build a prototype to prove his design, and run a long-term design validation. System failed, as we all knew it would. The deisgn was killed, his ego was preserved, he learned an inexpensive lesson. He may actually be a decent engineer one of these days.

TygerDawg

 

[SomeYahoo]

Facts and data, facts and data.

Start with the facts (what it is). Continue with what you want (what it should be). Follow up with data (cost was/is, assembly time was/is).

Then the important part... listen. They may or may not have valid arguments. Do not interject; take notes and hit their bullets after they are done.

Works for me...

 

[MadMango]

Try to get involved earlier in the design process if possible, especially before tooling needs to change. Like others have said, as long as you are armed with facts and data and listen to their reasoning, there should be no need to get emotional.

Perhaps try to share your DFM/DFA experience before a project gets started. It's a constant battle, but one you shouldn't have to be stressed out over. Everyone should be on the same team when it comes to cost reduction and DFM/DFA. My question would be why they are so resistant to change the design? Are your suggestions too engrossing, or difficult to achieve based on the status of a project? Are there aesthetic concerns that are impacted by your suggestions that are more important to others than savings?

[green]"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."[/green]
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[ziggi]

Tyger,
ahhh I remember being that young, arrogant prick . It's a good thing that I kept my mouth shut though, b/c the oldster techs and engineers eat guys like that for breakfast.
It's actually kinda funny to watch it happen, especially if the young guy has no sense of humor and behaves like a spoilt child hehehe. Ahhh I wait in anticipation to be one of the oldsters so that I can have my fun .

 

[ajack1]

Maybe the fact that you titled this thread arguing without getting emotional rather than discussing without getting emotional says a lot?

No one likes being told what to do or their ideas are wrong, but if it is put over in an aggressive way they are more likely to fight back and hey presto you have an argument rather than a discussion.

One thing I learned a long time ago is never “argue” a point or discipline anyone when you are angry.

 

[IRstuff]

Passion is good, over emotion is not.

Use it as a tool to show that you care about the outcome.

TTFN

 

[swearingen]

Ever heard of the win-win situation? I have a corollary to that called the win-thinks he won situation. There's two ways to do this:

1. Make it his idea - have pre-tooling meetings with the R&D team for review. Ask for ideas on how it can be streamlined further down the production process. Guide them towards what you know is best. When they come up with your idea, congratulate them for it and make a big deal out of implementing it. This will make them feel good about the current project AND encourage them to contribute more on future products.

2. Let him talk you down - come in with inflated requests and changes. Let him "talk sense into you". When you begrudgingly aquiesce, he has won, but he has talked you down to the level you orignally wanted anyway.

I prefer the first method and use it most often. I use the second method with someone who is particularly belligerent and aggressive. With this method, it's even OK to let things get heated - you know you're going to "lose" the argument anyway.

 

[Twoballcane]

Kinsrow,
I was wondering if you have a Configuration Control Board (CCB). It is always good to have a third party involved when design concerns arise. The board should consist of people who represent all facets of your company (Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Manufacturing, Planning, Buyers …etc). If you want to bring up ECOs that you feel will benefit the company/design, this is the group to make that decision. What ever the decision, you have to accept it. So, if you have beef with somebody, you can take your case to the CCB. If this does not help, maybe some anger management classes will help. I’m not joking, my last boss was ordered to take it or resign, to make a long story short he resigned.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[Kinsrow]

Thank you for all of your input. I stayed with facts, the whys, etc. Occasianlly, I would bring re-enforcement from operator and assembly line. I tried not to do often due to the fact that it would create more hostile environment. Here is one of the case. The product is in pilot stage and one of the snap features don't work. they are too hard. We had "discussion" about how to fix it, but at the end they said it's too late to change to tooling I had to make a special tool for it. Granted, I took over this process from other guy got pulled over to new project. I too think that this kind of problem should be dealt earlier. There are many cases like this that I had to double and triple check their work to make sure it is OK and when it is not OK I couldn't force them to change it and I had to fix it.

Kinsrow

 

[IRstuff]

Perhaps part of your problem is that your system is not designing for manufacturability. Involve the line guys at the beginning of the design, get their input, get their buy-in. Everyone might actually learn something and improve the overall process.

TTFN

 

[KENAT]

Sounds like a similar situation to what I and others in my group regularly experience.

Do you have management backing? If so it will be a lot easier. If you are fighting both management and the personnel then it's difficult to see an easy way to win.

If you have the possibily why not try and institute some DFMA training or guidlines. We've written a 2 page summary of some major points to try and get people thinking, it's too early to tell yet if it's worked but we do occasionally get people coming by asking good questions.

This may not solve the arguments but at least it's being proactive.

 

[Kinsrow]

I think the problem is the culture of the company. It almost looks like they only focused on the designing the concept without looking further ahead down the line. Last time we have DFMA training, only non R&D people were involved. I was shocked that only 1 or 2 Product Engineering people were there. I talked to several people who have been with the company more than 20 years and they said it was always like this. To make things interesting, our department used to be under their management so it is like saying without them there's none of us.....

This I can't control, but my attitude toward them I can...and that's what I'm trying to get better at it.

Kinsrow

 

[kontiki99]

I didn't get past the second post in this thread.

Ziggi,

Fact, I argue against taking on more work all the time. I'm loaded to about 300% of my capacity juggling regulatory projects with too close deadlines.

Folks with much lighter loads trying to push stuff off on my dosen't fly well. They get annoyed, I wish they'd get on a real project or at least quit trying to turn discretionary (read somebody's hobby project) into a full time job.

 

[monkeydog]

Ziggi has a good point (obnoxious as it was), some people like to "spin-up" others just for sport. I recall being nose to nose with one of the managers, both of us red faced, neither of us backing down then realized we were arguing for the same thing. I brought that to his attention, and we both backed down as if we won.

Try to apporoach the subject as a risk/benefit. Not just your risk and benefit, but the company/program risk and benefit.

 

[proletariat]

Too keep a cool head while arguing just realize you are a mercenary employed by a corporation to get product X into the marketplace. The outcome of the argument is almost totally irrelevant in the grand scheme and will make no difference in the condition of the world in 50 years. That's the nihilist perspective, and how I get through each day.

 

[monkeydog]

Word of the day
ni·hil·ism
Pronunciation: 'nI-(h)&-"li-z&m, 'nE-
Function: noun
Etymology: German Nihilismus, from Latin nihil nothing -- more at NIL
1 a : a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless b : a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths
2 a : a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility b capitalized : the program of a 19th century Russian party advocating revolutionary reform and using terrorism and assassination
- ni·hil·ist /-list/ noun or adjective


proletariat which are you?