Asked to stamp something I've never worked on or even know about 8

[psmpsm]

I am a licensed PE who recently joined a company with the idea that my PE would be used for stamping some projects. I was alright with that assuming the projects were something I worked on and oversaw and something that was in my expertise.

Recently, I was asked to review and stamp some test reports for a different division dealing with physical parts. I know nothing about physical parts and don't feel comfortable taking on that liability even if I was able to understand it on short notice.

My company is saying they will lose business if they don't have someone stamp these reports.

What do I do? My expertise is in power systems analysis, they are asking me to stamp something regarding connector test reports, something I've never worked on or know anything about. If I say no, what will happen to me?

 

[hokie66]

You should at least earn some respect, but that depends on the ethics of the company, which should be a long term benefit for you to know. This won’t be the last time. Just don’t do it.

 

[BrianPetersen]

Absolutely do not use your stamp on anything that you have not been responsible for the creation of. Using your seal on something that is outside your field of expertise is asking for trouble in a big, big way.

Perhaps you need to explain this to whoever is asking you to do this. Go ahead and look up the code of ethics and the regulations pertaining to professional engineering in whichever jurisdiction in which you operate, and use that to support your position.

"What will happen to me", well, none of the rest of us know your employment circumstances. It is entirely possible that if you don't do what someone in a position of authority in the company wants you to do, you're going to end up out of a job, but with your reputation (more-or-less) intact. But if you do it and end up having to defend a charge of incompetence ... you do not want to go there.

 

[271828]

Based on what you've typed, I don't see how you can validly seal these.

IF these were within in your expertise, then you might be able to justify reviewing and sealing, and even that is a stretch.

It sounds like you need to educate them on what it means to be in responsible charge. There is an NSPE page describing that.

 

[psmpsm]

Thank you all for the advice.

I recently found out that the project in question is based in Canada, and I am a US based engineer only licensed in one state. That should be one of the first things I mention, correct? I cannot stamp something in Canada unless I go through the certification process for international licensure.

How do I handle the pushback from them? I am anticipating they will ask me to learn it and review it, then stamp it.



"It is entirely possible that if you don't do what someone in a position of authority in the company wants you to do, you're going to end up out of a job, but with your reputation (more-or-less) intact. But if you do it and end up having to defend a charge of incompetence ... you do not want to go there."

Isn't this illegal?

 

[BrianPetersen]

Yes, it's illegal. That's why you do not want to go there.

 

[fel3]

No responsible charge and wrong jurisdiction. Two very valid reasons to say NO!

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[psmpsm]

I talked to an old friend of mine, who is near retirement, and a P.E.

He claims that assuming the work was where I was licensed, I should review the project, get up to speed with the standards, and make myself an expert so that I can stamp it. He said that I shouldn't say "no" to my employer because I am an electrical engineer and as long as the subject is electrical engineering I can make myself familiar with it and stamp it. He says that because I don't have the experience with it doesn't mean I can use that as an excuse to not learn it and stamp it. Then again, he has an oldschool mentality.

What do you guys think about that? I feel that this is how my employer would push back, not considering the jurisdiction issue. I am just curious about this, for future reference if it ever happens.

 

[271828]

Look up what it means to be in responsible charge.

 

[psmpsm]

"Look up what it means to be in responsible charge."

Oh.. that makes sense. So I really can't review something like this since I wasn't involved.

 

[fel3]

It is certainly possible to get up to speed on a project by reviewing, in great detail, the project files and the design, making changes as needed, etc. and thus take over the role as the engineer in responsible charge. I have done this several times when a colleague quit and their projects were being passed out to other engineers in the company. However, I have also refused a couple projects because they were outside my areas of expertise and there wasn't time or budget available for me to learn the subject in sufficient depth and breadth to give me the "warm fuzzy" that I needed and to properly protect me and the company from errors and omissions.

Just because I am a licensed civil engineer doesn't mean I am competent in all areas of civil engineering or can become competent in a reasonable length of time. In the same way, just because you are a licensed electrical engineer doesn't mean that you are competent in all areas of electrical engineering or can become competent in a reasonable length of time.

Regardless, there is still the jurisdiction hurdle that can't be jumped.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[MintJulep]

Is there anything documented about how you are expected to use your PE stamp in your job offer, or even an email leading up to the job offer?

Or did you just assume what you wrote in your first post?

Anything about your isolation from liability? In general, not just this case.

 

[psmpsm]

Prior to joining the company, my P.E. was never mentioned.

Shortly after I joined, my manager asked me if I'd be ok with using my PE to stamp drawings. He never mentioned anything about stamping things outside my expertise.

Somehow out of the 75,000 people in our firm I'm the only one in the electrical group with a P.E.. I'm definitely going to have to push back because the way people flaunt it, they seem to think that "hey, we have a P.E. so now we can stamp anything!". The department asking me to stamp right now isn't even my own department. Bunch of sales guys with no engineering background asking for it.

Edit: Found out the guy that was supposed to stamp this stuff was with the company for 20+ years. Can't imagine it's reasonable for me to take over and stamp whatever they needed from him.

 

[psmpsm]

This is what they're asking me to do.

Product A needs a test report, but they dont have it.

Product B has test reports, which can be used for product A (they confirm this is true via email).

They need an engineer to sign off on a statement saying the test reports for product B can be used for product A.



Is this something that has regional jurisdiction (since it's not a project, and just a statement, why would jurisdiction matter)? Is this something that even needs review if they are plainly saying via email that product B test reports can be used for product A? I'm wondering if I'm being too paranoid.

 

[MintJulep]

Sounds like what they really need is a Notary.

 

[hokie66]

Or a lawyer.

 

[BrianPetersen]

Who is needing the test report to be stamped and why?

 

[psmpsm]

"Who is needing the test report to be stamped and why?"

The customer. I'm guessing they need our parts for something in their design and they need an engineer to certify that the test reports are valid for the part they want, since we said they are.

 

[BrianPetersen]

So that's potentially (but not necessarily - you haven't given us enough information - but perhaps you can assess this yourself) what I call a BS reason for wanting a stamp. It isn't in support of a building permit, or construction of something that affects the safety of the public, or for producing a document in which "the government" says shall be stamped. It really should be dealt with by a letter, on company letterhead, signed (plain ordinary signature, not necessarily an engineer's seal) by someone in authority at the company who takes responsibility for what they are saying.

Right? Or not?

Is the "test report" for something that affects the safety of the public if whatever it's for, isn't what you say it is? Does a bridge fall down, does a building collapse, does an airplane fall out of the sky, does the wheel fall off a truck while driving down the motorway, does someone eat or drink something that's going to cause harm?

Or is the consequence merely that the colour of a paint is a wee smidge off, or the water tastes funny but isn't going to kill you or make you sick, or a piece of clothing doesn't last as long as a potential customer hopes that it should, or it leads to a warranty claim because something doesn't do what someone said it would for as long as it ought to?

If it is the former (or if you can't establish whether it's the former or the latter), then you are being asked to do something that it appears that you don't feel you are qualified to do, and you shouldn't do it.

If it is the latter, and you KNOW it's the latter, then it appears that POSSIBLY someone needs to be educated in what sorts of things require an engineering seal to be applied, and what don't need it, and what shouldn't have it. BUT. The rest of us don't have all the information. You're the one who needs to make that assessment.

'Course, we all know that sometimes educating someone can be as effective as talking to the wall. "They just want it." and it's above your pay grade to change their minds. Still ... if it's outside your realm of expertise ... the ultimate answer remains "No. Absolutely not."

 

[IRstuff]

I would recommend not signing.

This seems to me to be a risk-transfer mechanism; if the company certifies that the test and results are valid, they assume whatever risk there might be, with you signing, you assume that risk.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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