automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing 5

[nanokron]

I have questions about automotive or engine manufacturer internal combustion gas or diesel engine clean sheet designing (mostly 4 and or 6 and or 8 cyl ) especially cylinder head and cylinder block item

1) how many individual are involved in an automotive or engine manufacturer clean sheet gas/diesel engine design program from first concept sketch to detailed 3D model and or detail drawings ( mostly cylinder head and cylinder block )

2) is there a internet resource where i can find info about organizational chart for an automotive or engine manufacturer clean sheet gas or diesel engine program layout from first concept sketch to detailed 3D CAD model and or detail drawings with all individuals involved into such project like ex: Rank, officials titles and roles toward the project ( no proprietary data involved only project structure info needed even if the manufacturer is long gone )

3) is there anyone here that was in the past involved and assign into such a project with an auto or engine manufacturer for a clean sheet automotive gas or diesel engine design program in the past that does still remember how it was done on the drawing board and slide rules " the old way " any 3D CAD modeling person welcomed BUT i am curious on how they did it before the computer era

P.S. i am intrigue on how the process of engine conception from concept to 3D model and or detail drawings is done
Ex A- cylinder head bolt location, diameter and length who decides these parameter B- the water cooling ports from the cylinder block to cylinder head who is in charge of setting those parameters before being approve by the chief engineer, C- intake and exhaust port location layout and manifold mounting holes, D- is the cylinder block model done first BEFORE the cylinder head or vise versa ) i found some info on the net but not much details about the that specific process


any feedback appreciated

 

[GregLocock]

It is not a linear process. The valve spring guy runs his calculations and finds the valve mass is too high for the expected red line, so they go back to the valve design, and find the stem diameter was higher than strictly necessary, so they change that and the valve guide, which then involves a mod to the head. And so it goes. There are a lot of little conversations like this in a drawing office.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[nanokron]

so basically the time range of completion is when the whole assembly drawings are done from concept to detail blueprints I know casting drawings and detail drawings are two different things, so say the start to finish drawings are we talking about 4 months or a year I am trying to scale that into a perspective of time frame of that fascinating and kind of secretive projects of that scale


P.S. I am gone try to get a copy of John Manning’s book, Internal Combustion Engine Design, published by Ricardo, 2012. ISBN 978095732920-1

but I don't know if it still printed :/

 

[GregLocock]

I'd guess about a year. I think a production crankshaft for an existing engine (just a new counterweight strategy) took about 6 months.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[CWB1]

About a year is a good answer so long as the project is fairly focused. Usually when projects take much longer IME its because multiple application/vehicle teams with different requirements became involved and the politics got messy. Unfortunately when a new engine design is announced every team wants to be the first kids with the new toy under their hood, heaven forbid they'd wait a few model years.

 

[EHudson]

I obtained Mr. Manning's book from the Ricardo office in Belleville, Michigan. They will also sell you a reprint of Sir Harry Ricardo's book.

 

[BigClive]

I am not an expert on engine design but I would imagine that these days very little engine designing is done from first principles. A company would probably rely for the basics on an existing design (their own or a competitor's) and the only really in-depth designing would be done on some new feature.

 

[GregLocock]

You'd be sticking your neck out there. Mazda's SkyActiv and the EcoBoost family include some clean sheet designs.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[nanokron]

BigClive this is one of my taught is that most engine design features are coming either from a legacy prints or a reverse engineer competitor engine scanned in 3D than the features are extrapolated in a way to go around specific details to prevent any copyrights issues ex company A engine has a main bearing journal diameter of 54.00 mm and width of 24.00 mm company B engine has a main bearing journal diameter of 55.00 mm and width of 23.50 mm ) doing so prevent infringing on each others design like the old 2.2 liter 4 cyl from Chrysler that engine seams to have feature from another manufacturer like Fiat but again there a lot of familiarity between engine manufacturer especially if you look specific details like bellhousing bolt pattern or water pump mounting pad and or valve cover mounting flange and or engine mount pads. I am sure that engineers or maybe draftsmen must take some lurking into others feature design more so if they previously work for a competitor aside of the typical calculations needed for a reliable design

 

[CWB1]

The question of whether or not we're really doing any clean-sheet design anymore could be asked of any product. At one extreme you have companies of experienced engineers iterating and refining the same principles over time for their specific product type. IME those companies make money selling good products. At the other extreme you have companies of inexperienced "engineers" trying to revolutionize an industry by inventing new ways/principles to solve a problem. IME those companies make headlines, but rarely money or workable product until they hire or buy (consultants) outside experience. Getting back to the question, what is "clean-sheet design?" I'd say its subjective. On a highly refined product like a recip engine, even minor changes to one system drive a multitude of significant changes to others. Personally I could care less what level of technology is applied to an engine family, designing the first of any new family always will be a massive, challenging undertaking.