Becoming friends with clients, and mixing work/life? 10

[milkshakelake]

I'm not sure how to handle situations where clients or industry peers want to hang out. For example, a certain client invited me to come out for drinks or to a restaurant 3 times so far, and it was a bit hard to say no. This will sound outrageous, but he bought the same Porsche I have after he saw mine and now wants to go to Porsche meets together. Another business relationship invited me to a bathhouse, so we went and relaxed, but I was questioning what I was doing there. Last week, a client came to train our office for zoning (which we clearly said we'd pay for), didn't take the money, invited us out to dinner, and said he considered us friends and would never charge for it.

I'm just not sure how much to blend friendship and professional life. I feel like if I have a strong connection with someone, it makes it harder to do business. I have to charge clients fair rates, but when we're friends, I feel like they ask me to go above and beyond compared to other clients. I don't need more friends in my life. I have a family and close friends already. I know business is built on trust and relationships, but I have a feeling that too much intermingling interferes with standard business procedures. I wonder if I'm being too transactional in business, but business is literally a series of transactions.

Then there's the problem of relatives. I hired one in the past, I fired him for continual lack of performance, and we didn't talk for like 3 years. Time healed the wounds and we're close again. But it was just a rough spot with someone I'm quite close with. Since I own a business, I have relatives asking to work for me. I have to constantly turn them down because I don't want a repeat of the past experience. If I hire a friend or relative, I just wouldn't be able to treat them as I would any employee.

Anyone have similar experiences or opinions to the contrary?

 

[dik]

I'm not really a people person... I can count my friends on one hand, and still have fingers left over. I get along well with people, but I don't really form friendships.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[phamENG]

I think your concerns are justified. Occasionally going out for drinks with clients is a good thing, so long as it isn't too much of a habit. One thing that our generation struggles with is the stratification of relationships. In many cases, you're a friend or you're not, and that's it. The nuance of aquaintance, business associates, friends, and intimate friends (not that kind of intimate) gets lost. If you can find it and set boundaries accordingly, you'll be fine. Others may struggle to understand, but you'll both be better for it in the long run.

 

[milkshakelake]

@dik I am a people person and consider friends essential, but I only need the friends I can count on my fingers. When adding clients and stuff, it goes into dozens, which I definitely don't need.

@phamENG The hard part is setting those boundaries. Some people try to cross it all the time, so their boundaries are far different. I guess either they don't have enough friends and see the friendliness of our business relationship as more than only that, or they want a business advantage.

 

[phamENG]

The trick is holding the line. Eventually they'll get the idea. Anecdote time:

Had a contractor, a couple years older than me, that decided we would be friends and help each other grow our businesses. Okay. I didn't encourage it, but didn't exactly discourage it - I was just starting out and having a reliable source of work was indeed a bonus. Invited me over for drinks, birthday party, etc. I tried to be polite and come to something occasionally, but wasn't there at his beck and call. Then I get the call - "hey, man, had a job shut down. My guys built this porch and I didn't pull the permit. City wants a letter saying everything is okay before they'll pull the stop work order, can you help me out?" Well, he thought he was asking a friend to "help him out" rather than asking his structural engineer to do a job. The mixture of confusion and anger in his voice when he called after receiving a four page letter outlining all of the poor workmanship and code violations is hard to describe. He paid the bill, though. And then I never heard from him again. Boundary established.

 

[StrucPatholgst]

35 years ago me and most of my close friends all worked at one company, and we had a client in the south who ran a golf outing. Only the young guys would go, none of the older managers or owners. Trust me, they were a lot of fun, but I personally could only take it once a year. Too much liquor, too many go-go bars, too many 3 am nights with 8 am tee times. Kind of shocked those guys are all still alive. I'm an introvert at heart, and those drips drained me.

As for hiring friends and family, avoid that like the plague. I did it once and the friendship ended in acrimony.

As for clients asking for personal favors involving my license, I've had two clients never call again after I refused to make problems go away.

 

[LittleInch]

Well they always say don't mix business and pleasure and that still holds.

A bit of context might help - Are you all principals of the businesses / operations that you control? Larger companies are normally quite hot on this sort of thing to avoid getting sued or investigated under bribery legislation.

but if you're a smaller company, the issue is what sort of percent of your business does this Porsche driving friend have? As noted above, either way it is at risk once the other party with a bit more power in the business relationship starts to move it more into the personal side. Sooner or later you will get a call like phamENG recalled or just initial "can you just do...?", "can you just have a quick look at...?" leads into other requests.

However sometimes it swings the other way and you get favourable notice of future work or just the odd pass on some deadline missed or cost increase you want to pass on. But most of the time the "friendship" works the other way. As for the free training then you could just say "We had allocated money for this and if you don't want to charge we feel bad about that so can we donate this to a charity / cause of your choice instead. Then you make it clear that the training has still "cost" the business some money.

As for the relatives and friends part, you just need to make it clear in writing if necessary, that the favour extended to them because they are some relative or friend finished at getting them the job. Make it crystal clear that you expect exemplary attendance and performance and will be treated like any other employee and if you get reports that they are using your relationship to get internal favours or not pulling their weight then they are out - and you've done it before. Then tell whoever has approached you if anyone on their behalf AND all the other staff. If you did it before they might then have confidence that you'll do it again. But I can understand why you would have a policy against doing that, especially if you're a relatively small company.

I'm sure (think) it was a typo / Freudian slip, but I did like Srucpaths last line "I'm an introvert at heart, and those drips drained me.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[TigerGuy]

I try to maintain cordial communication with clients. I don't drink, so that eliminates most invitations. I'm usually too busy with work to go play golf, once they see me golf they won't invite me back.

It seems more natural that if I bump into a client at a social event, to greet and make small talk, but not get too deep.

 

[SWComposites]

Agree with above, "business friendships" are not the same as "personal friendships". The former need boundaries to keep everyone aware that its still a business relationship.

 

[milkshakelake]

@phamENG Nice story, though that highlights exactly why I'm concerned about it. I want to nip it in the bud before it goes to angry breakup territory and results in losing a client. Though that client sounds manipulative from the beginning, and it might not have worked out anyway. It sounds like you did the bare minimum to keep the friendship part going, which I think is on the right track, though it might even have been too much.

I have my own similar story. There was a client who I shared an office with, who helped me get started. We always helped each other out, all legit stuff. Then one day, he needed me to sign off on some reshoring for a project we were fighting with the building department for months. It was the last step, and his reshoring was incorrect, but he wouldn't leave my office until I made the report he wanted. I was furious with him but did it, said I'd never talk to him again, and the stop work order on the project was released. We're just starting to do business together again after a year. The difference from your story is that I wouldn't have a successful business without this guy, so I took one for the team and I don't regret it. I was furious at the time, but the rational part of me understands that I benefited a lot from the friendship, probably a lot more than what he got. It was a lesson learned for the future, though. I no longer need the type of help he gave me.


@StrucPatholgst The experience you had with the client with the golf outing sounds like some of my clients. Some of them are older, so one would assume they got partying out of their systems when they were younger, but they party and drink like no tomorrow with rich client money. No thanks, I prefer being boring and healthy. And yeah, good advice about not mixing business and friends/family.


@LittleInch I'm the owner of a small company. All the employees are introverts, so I don't have to worry about them being bribed. The client in question is about 25% of the business, which I can't afford to lose, so he definitely holds the power. I'm very wary of the situation phamENG described; it's only a matter of time, I guess. Every developer will be put into a tough spot at some point and will want some license-risking behavior from the engineer.

I do agree that these friendship-business-type relationships have some benefits for me, like when I miss a deadline. I guess it goes both ways. It's just that the downside is license-risking. The best path forward would be to just be better and never miss a deadline or screw up, which is not humanly possible but it's something I aspire to. That way, I won't need the favors. Along the same thinking, I guess it also leads to expanding and having less of a reliance on one rich client (who can just buy a sports car on a whim that I saved up a long time for), though another big client will take his place, so the best thing is to just not put friendship into the mix.

I'm keeping that idea about donating to charity next time this kind of thing happens with the free training.

 

[milkshakelake]

@TigerGuy I think that's the right way to go about it. Be friendly and affable enough, just don't mix it with business.

@SWComposites Wholeheartedly agree!

 

[geotechguy1]

I always thought, going for a beer with a client or a dinner is OK, being regular drinking buddies with them or taking them to the strip club, probably not. Although investment bankers might beg to differ

 

[CWB1]

Many folks are pretty cavalier when it comes to using the word "friend." There are also many different sales strategies so I wouldn't assume anyone expects quid-pro-quo pricing until they ask for it, in which case I'd be forced to cut ties to remain ethical.

My various employers have always had a seemingly endless flow of suppliers and potential customers coming in from around the globe for unsolicited sales pitches. I often find them pretty educational and recommend juniors attend them whenever possible. Many are straightforward "who we are, what we do" advertising slide decks, others are niche training courses full of the company's branding, capabilities, pics, etc which are often retained/shared internally and help drive the supplier's sales for years. Even universities do this, offering weeks worth of abbreviated coursework/training onsite at local businesses to advertise degree/cert programs directly to professionals. Some of these pitches include snacks or a meal, others don't. None of it ever impacts pricing bc there are real costs and benefits to both sides. Your time sitting through sales pitches costs money, as does the supplier/customer's cost to give them, tho theirs may be tax deductible. Engineering samples are similar, they're a tax-deductible way to get customers interested in your business so despite the slimier sales folks professing that they're a buddy doing you a favor, its just their job.

JMO but if you want to be friends with someone then do so, there's no issue regardless of business relationship. If you dont then I'd recommend using a "busy" family as an excuse to avoid outside social activities.

 

[LittleInch]

Something else which came to mind is whether you can or have any company "functions", BBQs, days out, trips to watch football, hockey, basketball, buy a table at the local structural engineers local dinner dance - whatever - and invite said client WITH OPTHER CLIENTS to it. Then you get to even out the favours and invites and also let them know subtly that you have a fair bit of other work streams ( they may or may not know they are 25% of your business).

The charity thing is hopefully quite good as it then makes it clear you're not taking a total "freebie" and that whilst the person isn't being paid, you've promptly matched his favour with a financial one to their charity so you are now "even". It would make it very difficult for them to refuse a donation like that I feel.

And good luck driving the Porsche (which one?). I got something similar a few years ago as a late mid life crisis car and I just love it. Don't need to use / show off the power and handling very often, but when I do it's just great. Not sure I trust myself to take it on a race day but there are very few that can keep pace once I plug it into race mode. Even my wife finally admitted that it "has a lot of go" when she was forced to drive it a lot last year.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[bcd]

Just because a supplier or client is a friend does not necessarily mean there is a conflict of interest. I have some very close friends that were customers. We are still friends and get together occasionally to play golf, dinner, drinks, etc. after retirement. We genuinely share a lot of common interests.

The key is that we made it very clear up-front that work and protection of each company's interest comes first. There must be a clear and common understanding that you will be fully truthful and honest, and that there is no deviation from this. No hesitation to call either party out when they made a mistake, nor to call in "special favors" when something does go wrong. It can work when there is this mutual understanding. It's not easy and requires a lot of discipline. However, over the long-term, both parties learned a lot from each other during the work times, and still enjoy each other's company after retirement.

 

[geesaman.d]

The key is that we made it very clear up-front that work and protection of each company's interest comes first.

When doing personal business with friends/family/acquaintances, I like to say "I respect you too much to not put it all in writing. I insist."

If I owned a company it wouldn't be so casual but I think the same philosophy can apply.

 

[271828]

The thread is an interesting read for me.

I've gotten out of dealing with these issues because my colleagues have always been very busy and closely guard their time. Aside from work, they spend all of their time with family. I'm the same way, so it's a good match. LOL

The closest thing for me would be out-of-town trips where there's time in the evenings for socializing. I'll go out for dinner, but that's about it. I draw the line when a colleague or the group wants to make dinner into an adventure. Some of my colleagues have picked restaurants that are far from the hotel and/or are slow. That burns most of the evening and too much of my energy. For the last few years, when the dinner will not be very close by, I've skipped out.

 

[milkshakelake]

@geotechguy1 I think going to a client for dinner once is okay. If it becomes a regular thing, it starts crossing the line.


@CWB1 I've turned down every offer that gets on the side of advertising and free comps. I did it twice with an anchor bolt company and an insurance company, got free food and some anchor bolt knowledge for the whole company, but had to deal with follow up calls and emails. It's just not worth the hassle. I agree that if you want to be friends with someone, then there isn't as much conflict of interest, though there's still the concerns phamENG brought up of having to risk the license as a favor.


@LittleInch My business partner made a directive of not having clients get together in party or BBQ type functions. I'm not sure what the reasoning was, but she brings in more than half the business so I listen to it.

About the car (2003 Porsche 911), it makes my daily driving better. It's fantastic, handles supremely well and has lots of power. My wife hates it because it's too small and she can't drive stick, but everyone I meet likes it so it balances out. I was tired of driving a boring SUV everywhere. Glad you got something nice as well! If you don't mind me asking, what mid-life-crisis-remover did you get?


@bcd Agree 100%, that's a great way to go about it. I guess I prefer not even crossing the line with those caveats, to avoid any messy potentially stuff. I'm generally not confrontational and try to make everything go smoothly. I'm about 10-15 years away from retirement myself so it's not a factor at the moment.


@271828 A fellow introvert! I know exactly what you mean about doing things that burn energy.

 

[LittleInch]

I got a Golf R. 300 bhp 4 wheel drive. Very subtle though so no flashy bits.

Goes like stink and sticks to the road like glue.

It takes 5 people and luggage. Can do pretty good fuel economy if you don't toe it all the time. I love it.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[271828]

@271828 A fellow introvert! I know exactly what you mean about doing things that burn energy.

LOL. How about this for a horror show: I flew pretty far to get to a project, worked a pretty long day, and then my colleague wanted to go to a specific restaurant. We started driving at about 6 pm, had a hard time finding it, and ended up eating from about 8:30 to 10 pm as I recall. Got back to the hotel at 10:30-11. Flew out early the next morning. I was so tired I felt like I would fall over. Without the dinner adventure, the day would've been fairly normal and no big deal.

Thankfully, my long term colleagues don't take offense when I skip dinner, etc. I've had many of these friends for 25-30 years.