Becoming friends with clients, and mixing work/life? 10

[milkshakelake]

I'm not sure how to handle situations where clients or industry peers want to hang out. For example, a certain client invited me to come out for drinks or to a restaurant 3 times so far, and it was a bit hard to say no. This will sound outrageous, but he bought the same Porsche I have after he saw mine and now wants to go to Porsche meets together. Another business relationship invited me to a bathhouse, so we went and relaxed, but I was questioning what I was doing there. Last week, a client came to train our office for zoning (which we clearly said we'd pay for), didn't take the money, invited us out to dinner, and said he considered us friends and would never charge for it.

I'm just not sure how much to blend friendship and professional life. I feel like if I have a strong connection with someone, it makes it harder to do business. I have to charge clients fair rates, but when we're friends, I feel like they ask me to go above and beyond compared to other clients. I don't need more friends in my life. I have a family and close friends already. I know business is built on trust and relationships, but I have a feeling that too much intermingling interferes with standard business procedures. I wonder if I'm being too transactional in business, but business is literally a series of transactions.

Then there's the problem of relatives. I hired one in the past, I fired him for continual lack of performance, and we didn't talk for like 3 years. Time healed the wounds and we're close again. But it was just a rough spot with someone I'm quite close with. Since I own a business, I have relatives asking to work for me. I have to constantly turn them down because I don't want a repeat of the past experience. If I hire a friend or relative, I just wouldn't be able to treat them as I would any employee.

Anyone have similar experiences or opinions to the contrary?

 

[lacajun]

Most state statutes require PEs to associate with companies of good reputation. It seems prudent to do business with others that have high ethical standards, as well as moral standards. Eliminates lots of problems.

My past employers frowned upon too much fraternization with sales people or engineering firms. Lunches, dinners, and golf outings were OK but nothing more unless you had approval from management. They required approval of anything over $25 in value. They trained all of us on ethics and business law annually. Expectations were very clear. And, it's easy to see how things can go sideways quickly.

Some of the sales people have told me that it's very aggravating to have this quid pro quo stuff going on. Some engineers are quite pushy about it and want expensive trips for two or they will take their business elsewhere.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[milkshakelake]

@LittleInch Nice! I've driven something similar before (automatic 2011 R model, little less HP) and it hauls. My car does 13 MPG, so my fuel economy is more like a fuel crisis, but I only count the smiles per gallon.

@271828 Oof, it's one of those days. Yeah, that sounds draining. I need like 8-9 hours of sleep or I'll be almost non-functional.

@lacajun That sounds like a good policy. Treating the employees of another company nicely is a good business strategy in terms of sales, but it's definitely not in the employees' company's best interests. Thanks for sharing that; it seems like I'm on the right path about thinking about this.

 

[dik]

My old Z-28 (LS6, 454 engine) used to get 8mpg in the city and about 13 on the highway... different times... gas was about $.30 per gallon...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[milkshakelake]

I've gotten as much out of this thread that I needed, so I'm okay with discussing cars.

So dik, I would have loved to drive your car. I'm younger so I used to have a 1988 Toyota MR2 and a 1988 Jaguar XJ6. Those things were not fast by modern standards, but they were really interesting to drive. Very analog. You could see the wire connected to the gas pedal that made the engine rev up. It's something lost with cars these days. I upgraded to a 1993 Honda Accord automatic, and that thing was a nightmare...slow and unresponsive. I could never go back to "friendly" cars at that point.

 

[dik]

I know an engineer that often had it up over 150mph... the LS6 engine wasn't stock for the Camero... and had to be ordered special.

When I first got the car, tore the engine apart, cleaned and prepped it, and re-built it properly. Balanced the engine in the engineering lab at the U of M.
I Did the same with my Cooper Ss. Not surprising, a lot of the quality speed parts (and inexpensive) were manufactured by Chev... they were into stock car racing so a lot of the good stuff was 'off the shelf'. My dad came by about a week later and was surprised to find my engine parts all over my kitchen floor.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[milkshakelake]

My goodness, I'd never touch an engine. It might blow up when I reassembled it.

 

[wheaney]

Well, they're supposed to blow up! Quickly, repeatedly, and at a certain pace...

 

[TigerGuy]

Mine don't blow up until I'm road testing them AFTER I reassemble them, usually when I'm a few miles from home......and then I walk my self to find help.

 

[wheaney]

...and then I walk my self to find help.

A folding e-bike in the back seat could save you a few steps.

 

[rQuestionEngineering]

You need to share this with your boss , declare potential conflict of interest , so that you will not have problems during audits.

 

[milkshakelake]

@rQuestionEngineering I am the boss, thus the quandary. But I've figured it out thanks to the comments.

 

[JMASE]

Clients are not your friends, business partners are not your friends, consultants are not your friends. These are all transactional relationships. Collegiality, trust, honesty are all appropriate, but when a legal dispute arises, you'll know for sure that they aren't your friends. Take it from someone who has the scars to prove it.

 

[milkshakelake]

@JMASE Agreed, I do keep business relationships at a distance.

Since this thread is back from the dead, quick update is that I've become closer friends with the client who bought the same car as me. He's actually quite smart and we're going into a building development together, outside of engineering. I see some dollar signs on the horizon. So we're hanging out more. I just have to keep him at an arm's length and make sure it never gets into close friendship territory. Besides that, I'm not hanging out with anyone involved in business.

 

[JMASE]

I should have added: Employees are not your friends either.

 

[IRstuff]

Of course, sometimes, your friends are not REALLY your friends ;-)

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[CWB1]

Being in a semi-nomadic profession that is largely based-on tribal-knowledge has me honestly surprised by a few attitudes. IME folks who refuse colleagues' friendship usually dont last more than a few years in engineering bc they either fail to progress technically or find themselves miserably "alone" in a strange city. I've always felt fortunate that so many colleagues opened their lives/homes/families to me and mine. I wouldn't have half the engineering, business, or industry knowledge if not for after-hours discussions. I wouldn't have had half the career or income if friends hadn't pointed me toward new opportunities, away from trouble, and helped me get recruited. My family wouldn't be nearly as happy if friends hadn't received us in new cities with welcome parties and introductions to the local area. I wouldn't have nearly as much fun if I had to actively search for other introverts with similar interests and hobbies, but thankfully colleagues who became friends are constantly expanding my network and the fun usually finds me. IMO its a surprisingly small profession and well-worth getting to know beyond the office limits.

 

[AZPete]

CWB1,

See the Engrg Practices thread where a PE took a complaint. The American business mindset cultivates a siege mentality that encourages engineers to cast stones at one another above and beyond their normal professional and ethical duties/requirements. Litigation is the great starvation of relationships. It makes for a barren industry. It is what it is, but it's a curse of the business and litigation reality. Bravo to those who still buck that trend to be generous, courteous, and friendly.

 

[milkshakelake]

@CWB1 I have lots and lots of industry contacts and relationships, but not many friendships. I think there's a line in the sand there for me. But I'm glad it works out for you. I think we have different paths, both of which can potentially work. Your viewpoint is a valuable counterpoint to almost every other comment here.

I'm also an introvert, and almost every engineer and architect I met is introverted. It might not necessarily be true or it might be my circle of close contacts; it's just my own observation. I wonder if something about being in an industry full of introverts leads to my mentality and the other comments here that one shouldn't mix work and friendships. I just realized that the "problematic" people I mentioned in my original comment are all huge extroverts. Maybe it just drains my energy, and I don't want to deal with it.

 

[CWB1]

I agree that litigation and ruthless people are risks worth preparing for but disagree on the overall state of the profession.

From a simple statistical standpoint its worth remembering that PEs arent a good representation of the profession stateside bc they're a small subset. Owners of small engineering firms are an even smaller subset and NSPE members probably the smallest subset worth mentioning. In standard risk terms, if we encounter legal issues the majority of engineers face high severity but an extremely low frequency of occurrence so there's effectively no risk unless we do something extremely dumb. Most face more risk of criminal penalties than civil bc so much of our work falls under laws governing import/export, health&safety, environmental, intellectual property protection, insider trading, etc...and the fact that employers have more assets to sue for. Small business owners arguably face the opposite, higher risk of civil than criminal penalties bc there's nobody else to sue coupled with the fact that they're not particularly heavily regulated (local&state vs federal is a bit of a joke IMHO). In either case, I've often heard and believe that if you face regular legal issues and aren't wealthy you should seek another line of work.

Ruthless folks are another matter entirely, unavoidable but thankfully also a small minority. Like legal issues they make for great water-cooler/forum gossip but I dont see them having a particularly large impact on anybody's career long-term. I've had several patents and other work "stolen" by other engineers and even one executive but in the scheme of my career its an annoyance at best, a few less achievements on a solid resume.

JMO but I wouldn't pass on a friendship simply bc of a business relationship nor would I allow that friendship to affect business. If it does then its time to reevaluate who your friends are.

milkshake, understood and largely agreed. I'm not trying to argue for being friends with everybody, just countering statements that friends and business can't mix.

 

[NorthCivil]

Have any of you folks ever done business in asia/China?

Thats where the art of friendship, aquaintance-ship, personability, and its relation to business is a complex woven fabric that need be handled with the utmost grace.

In the west, maneuvering business and personal matters is a cake walk relatively speaking. I enjoy the friendship aspect, and let it flow naturally. That said, if someone is forcing themselves on you (a non important client who you don't gel with naturally, trying too hard to be friends), then ice things up a bit.

And a "friend" asking you to sign off on something dodgy, isnt a friend. thats not rocket science