Best pump(s) to bring water uphill (700 meters altitude)? 3

[Sheccid]

Hello everyone!

I'm trying to figure out the best way and cost effective way to bring water from a small river up the side of a small mountain. I'm trying to start a farming business, my dilemma is bringing the water up to the top.

I have a small rocky river at the bottom and the land space is 1800 meters long going up to the top. the altitude at the top is 700 meters.
most pumps I have found have a head limit of 50 to 60 meters, if I have understood correctly "head" is how high the pump can send the water.the other common factor is that most pumps I have found are intended for high water flow and not necessarily pressure.

unfortunately I don't have 60+ thousand dollars for industrial size pumps. I figure, I can build my system in sections and work my way up.

could you guys recommend some pumps that I could use? I don't need thousands of gallons per minute.


Thanks

 

[DubMac]

Many, many pumps don't need thousands of gallons per minute; not sure of which one of those you are looking for. Can you tell us the volume of water your farming business needs each day? Or even better, Gallons Per Minute; aka, GPM ???

That is critical to selection. Can you tell us the pipe length and elevation change you need to overcome with your pump?
Recommendation will not be too tough if you give us this info.....

 

[Artisi]

If the river (stream) is flowing you could investigate a hydraulic ram system to pump your water up the side of your mountain. Search Google for pump - hydraulic ram.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[georgeverghese]

700m = 2300ft. Add say 200ft for expansion loops, another 100ft for fitting losses, sum = 2600ft

Option 1: The limit for a conventional single stage centrifugal appears to be approx 300ft, which gives 9 pumps at elevation intervals of about 260ft. Add power cable tray going up to serve 8pumps.

Option 2: Single multistage pump to derive 2600ft appears to be possible - power cable to serve ground level pump only

Overall reliability would be much better in option 2.

Flows start from 10gpm upwards for single stage, and > 20gpm for multistage - your choice- the higher the flow, the better the hydraulic efficiency, generally.

Source info : Perry

 

[bimr]

It probably makes more sense to drill a well rather than take water out of the river. The well water will be clean, unlike the river water.

Use a multistage submersible pump and it will get the water at least 500 meters of pressure.

You need to talk to a water supply expert in the local where you are located.

 

[LittleInch]

A few questions to narrow this down a bit.

What is the lift required? 700m? You say altitude at top is 700m, what is altitude at the river?

What fuel source do you have?

What is the most water volume you need per day?

A diesel driven piston pump sounds like the best idea to me. Your pressure at the bottom is quite high compared to many water systems so you need some help to get it right, but it is not extreme.

The key missing data is flow requirement.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Sheccid]

Thanks all for your responses!

DubMac & georgeverghese:

Perhaps I could place a series of pumps and wells as I work my way up. The idea would be to fill up the wells and distribute the water from the well points. Or simply dig a large well at the top, and then distribute the water from there. 20+ GPM would do.

I would use irrigation hoses on which come in 50 meters length.

georgeverghese:

I found this one pump, which can bring water this, high, but the cost is out my reach. It would be easier for me to use many pumps economically speaking

http://www.sulzer.com/en/Products-and-Services/Pumps-and-Systems/Two-Stage-Pumps/BBT-and-BBT-D

 

[Artisi]

You are running around in circles, 2 very experienced people have asked for clarification on a couple of points, 1 was flow required which you seem to have answered the 2nd was the change in elevation from the river level to the final discharge point, if you want meaningful advice how about giving meaningful information, we then have a chance in advising something worthwhile.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[Sheccid]

LittleInch, Dubmac ,

The river is at 200 meters altitude from there up there is an incline I don't know what the elevation change is.

I have attached a picture of the elevation map maybe that would help.

Diesel and natural gas are the most affordable fuels for me, or simply solar panel or windmills.

The idea is to dig a well at the top around 5000 cubic ft, from there use smaller pumps or let gravity distribute the water

 

[Sheccid]

Artisi and all,

Thanks for your response, and please be patience with my lack of knowledge, this is all new to me and I'm learning as I go, I appreciate any information you guy can provide. I provide the information I can with my limited knowledge.

I don't need large water flow, if it take me 3+ hours to fill the well at the top is fine with me. my concern at the moment is finding a good way to bring water to the top.

 

[georgeverghese]

So, the actual elevation difference is 700-200=500m = 1650ft?

Redoing the sums, adding on for expansion loops + fittings + losses = 1650 + 200 + 100 = say 2000ft

Using a series of pumps with intermediate reservoirs would be a pain to operate in the long term, if you ask me. Total capital cost may turn out to be more also compared to a single pump at el + 200m.

Am no expert with pump selection, but the key thing is to get a pump that has some tolerance to some solids in the feed. The pump you've posted seems to be for clean fluids service. Centrifugals have somewhat better tolerance to solids in the feed compared to plunger or piston or other similar pd pumps. Pumping efficiency is better with piston / plunger pumps, so lower cost for utilities per gallon pumped. Maintenance costs are generally higher for pd pumps.

Up till 50gpm or so, 2inch hose would be ok (total friction loss approx 100ft), but are these hoses good for 55-60barg ( equivalent to approx 2000ft head ) pressure? Add pump check valve / motor should prevent reverse rotation when pump stops.

As others have alluded to, pre conditioning this river water to suit the narrow clearances on a high head multistage centrifugal pump would be crucial to enabling trouble free operation with this pump, else you may be have to clean up this pump every so often - mud, silt, any other solids should be trapped out in some kind of upstream concrete settling chamber with a guard mesh or similar - see Hydraulic Institute Standards for configuration. This chamber design should enable isolation for offline cleaning.

 

[chicopee]

Your google map does not show where the creek and project location are located. Some thoughts, ski area have similar situations for snow making and one method that they use is to have a pond somewhere half way in between the water supply and the top of their mountains.

 

[ccfowler]

From what I have read so far, it seems to make the most sense to use multiple small pumps since you need to distribute water along the way from the river to the top. It makes no sense to pump water all the way to the top to simply let most of it flow back down the hill by gravity. Using several small pumps with each supplying some an upstream tank that can be used to distribute some of the flow and also feed the next pump in turn. Since the flow is being divided at each stage, the bottom pump must have the greatest flow capability, and each pump farther up the hill can be progressively smaller since it only needs to serve the water needs farther up the hill. Using several pumping stages avoids all of the costs and problems associated with higher pressures, and small irrigation pumps are relatively tolerant of water containing modest amounts of fine debris. The potentially greater efficiency of one larger, more costly pump is compensated by the pumping work that does not need to be done on water that does not need to go all the way up the hill anyway.

Additional savings can be realized by not needing the largest pipe size all the way up the hill. Progressively smaller pipe or hose sizes can be used since smaller flows will be needed progressively as you get farther up the hill.

Since diesel or natural gas are your most practical energy sources, it seems likely that one engine-generator can serve all of the pumps with each pump probably being 2 hp or less. 20 gpm does not seem to be much flow for anything but a very small irrigation system. Most likely, the lowest and largest pump will need to be a self-priming type to draw the water from the river, but all of the remaining pumps need not be self-priming since they can be situated beneath the intermediate tanks. Simple float level switches can be used to keep the intermediate pumps from running when their intermediate supply tank water levels are too low. Similarly, float level switches can be used to stop the supplying pump when the tank water level becomes too high.

If you use intermediate pools or ponds instead of intermediate tanks, then most likely the intermediate pumps will need to be self-priming type. Also, suction strainers would be needed at each stage if intermediate ponds are used.

Since each of these pumps are really quite small, none will require any elegant foundation. I would presume using direct-coupled pumps and motors so that no fancy alignment work will be needed on site.

I would want to consider using glued-joint PVC pipe for most of the piping needs since it is both easily assembled and relatively inexpensive.

If the engine-generator can be expected to be operated for a significant portion of its operating time at relatively light loadings, I would want to pay close attention to the diesel engine's relatively better part-load efficiency as a possible means of reducing fuel costs.

Valuable advice from a professor many years ago: First, design for graceful failure. Everything we build will eventually fail, so we must strive to avoid injuries or secondary damage when that failure occurs. Only then can practicality and economics be properly considered.

 

[Artisi]

Of course this all has to be done within financial considerations (unknown)utilising reasonable engineering practices (at this stage all airy - fairy) with long term reliability. Until such times the OP can commit to something concrete in terms of flow required heads involved, site access and all other considerations we are spinning wheels. The OP needs to take / get advice on the best method of supply and then take advise on the best pumping methods.
Gives us a plan of action etc and pumps can be selected and sized in a few minutes.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[gempump]

Sheccid,
Option 1:Horizontal single-suction multi-stage sectional-type centrifugal pump(e.g.:Model: 100SLD85-80*8,suction dia.:100mm, capacity :54 m3/h,head:704m,pump stage number:8,motor power:240kw.
Option 2eep well submersible pump(e.g.:Model:200QJ10-700,pump dia.:200mm,capacity:10m3/h,head:700m,motor power:45kw,G.W.:265KG.
Option 3:water pump in series.Brands: Grundfos CRNE4,etc.

Heavy-Duty Centrifugal Slurry Pump Manufacturer

http://www.gempump.com

 

[LittleInch]

Shessid,

I would currently stick to plan A as it allows you to access both sides of your quite steep hill.

From your data, if you fill your top pond in say 4 hours, you have a flow of 35m3/hr, 150 US Gpm. For that you would need a pump with shaft power of 80kw / 110hp. You won't get Solar or a windmill to do that. This would need something like a 2" or 4" pipe. If you use RTP reeled pipe you should find stuff which handles this pressure (approx. 60barg) which is easy to install and virtually maintenance free.

However I think you're looking at higher spec pumps than you need. There are much more "agricultural" skid mounted units available at a fraction of the cost of chemical pumps.

If you use a piston pump with the right sort of flow, the maximum pressure/head is irrelevant so long as it is at least equal to around 650-700m.

You might find more info on the civil/environmental forums.

As artisi says, there are a lot of things you need to determine before you start selecting a pump - that's the easy bit.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[gempump]

Sheccid，
Which type of pump did you select ?

Heavy-Duty Centrifugal Slurry Pump Manufacturer

http://www.gempump.com

 

[TenPenny]

Remember that, if you use a single pump, your pipe or hose must be capable of withstanding the total pressure, that's going to be something in the range of 900 psig.

I think you'll have to do it in two stages, even using something like a vertical can style multistage (like the Goulds eSV series, or the Grundfos equivalent), for 20 gpm, you're probably limited to 1000 ft head roughly.

 

[Artisi]

It was probably all too hard or all too confusing for what the OP thought was a simple problem - information overload.

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[Sheccid]

Hello all,

first of all, Thank you all for your replies and sharing the knowledge!

I have not gotten a pump yet.
I'm currently looking into building or buying a RAM Pump, I had seen some vids about it and one of you guys kindly mention it as well. the idea of a fuelless pump is hard to pass

I'm looking into making a RAM pump with a drive pipe of 6 to 10 inches depending on cost and the output pipe/hose size would depend on this probably 2 to 5 inches. it would be a multistage system.

First a water source tank elevated around 10 meters at a 200 meter distance from the pump. the RAM Pump should be able to bring the water a few hundred meters, at which point another RAM Pump & water source tank/well will be placed and so on. I would not be able to eliminate the use of a electric or fuel pump completely as I need a small pump to fill the elevated water source tank, however it will be at a much lower fuel cost/consumption.

This week I'm planing to visit a local Plumbing supply store which carries the 6+ inches fittings and valves I would need.

I would definitely come back and let you know the final outcome.

Regards