Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8] 24

[Sparweb]

This post is the continuation from this series of previous threads:

thread815-445840
thread815-450258
thread815-452000
thread815-454283
thread815-457125
thread815-461989
thread815-466401

This topic is broken into multiple threads due to the length to be scrolled, and images to load, creating long load times for some users and devices.
If you are NEW to this discussion, please read the above threads prior to posting, to avoid rehashing old discussions.

Thank you everyone for your interest! I have learned a lot from the discussion, too.

Some key references:
Ethiopian CAA preliminary report (Link from Ethiopia is now broken. See link from NTSB Investigations below)

Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee preliminary report

NTSB Investigations

NTSB Safety Recommendation Report: Assumptions Used in the Safety Assessment Process and the
Effects of Multiple Alerts and Indications on Pilot Performance

A Boeing 737 Technical Site

Washington Post: When Will Boeing 737 Max Fly Again and More Questions

BBC: Boeing to temporarily halt 737 Max production in January

Pulitzer Prize, For groundbreaking stories that exposed design flaws in the Boeing 737 MAX that led to two deadly crashes and revealed failures in government oversight.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[thebard3]

SparWeb-
Thanks for clarifying. Admittedly this is not my field of expertise.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

its nobody's field of expertise until you get lumbered with it.

But its a billion dollar industry.

They also use it tactically to screw up competitors.

Because Airbus have there systems setup since the 90's to accept info from basically any source with a set format which is common from A320 through to A380 they will say yes and support for system integration that they know fine that will be major effort for Boeing, which will need a clean sheet solution for basically every type cert. Say yes to something and support it and develop one system and have to certify it. V your competitor which needs 6 or 7 systems integrations and possibly 2-3 sub sensor systems certified add on's.

 

[Sparweb]

In my workplace and industry, the rules I play by drive a lot of my costs, and can get my customers' planes grounded if I make a mistake; killed if I make a big one.

(correct me if you think I'm oversimplifying) So, it seems that because we live in a democracy, there should be some representation of the people using the rules and/or the airplanes given input into the preparation of those rules. Things would be different if nobody's life depended on the safe operation of an airplane. Or if we didn't live in a democracy, of course. I have absolutely no idea how a country like China could come up with an aviation safety system that protects aircraft crew and passengers, on its own, without the rules from the USA to photocopy (and translate).

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Some good news. EASA boss has indicated that it will be released again soon.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ed-safe-to-fly-by-europe-s-aviation-regulator

That's a bit of a relief actually for everyone world wide it does no good only having one producer of aircraft.

Apart from anything else I bought a load of Boeing stock at 148 last month.

From mates that have worked in China the rules are perverted away from the intention. Its a huge blame culture everything revolves around being penalised. And locals disappear sometimes expats just get deported. Doesn't stop them crashing though. And they have the same issues with alcohol that the western world had in the 80/90's with aircrew. Which thankfully is now history. My record was being breathalysed 6 times in one day. Once on the way to work in the car, once at work normal report blow in the meter, then by the Norwegian's after the first sector, had a safa inspection which we also got tested. Had a random drugs test when we finished the duty. And got a random test on the way home as well by the same cop that had tested me at 5:30 am on the way in.

 

[Sparweb]

I was really surprised to seek Patrick Ky get ahead of this one. I was privately expecting EASA would wait for the FAA to stick their necks out first. Maybe even seek 3rd place if Canada spoke up soon after the FAA.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[dik]

...be interesting if another plane falls out of the sky. Anyone signing off should be held criminally liable... Last month Boeing had no new orders.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There is no IF about it, its when and for what reason.

Politically its better as the certifier of Airbus that EASA is the first one to come out and give its approval... better to not be seen as the one putting the brakes on especially if its obvious that there is extremely limited ability to improve things much in the short term. Its not as if a lot of them will be flown outside the USA before the 24 months its going to take to develop the 3 AoA. It also adds credence to the FAA re certifying it. And the regulators are just as much under the spot light as Boeing on this one. They need to get the mutual recognition back up and working.


The out come of next months election may also be a factor and the on going sanctions which have been pretty much got round by Airbus over a plane which isn't even made anymore. A lot of the sanctions are on exports from the UK which will be not subject to them in the new year.

 

[LittleInch]

So what happened to the kill the stick shaker switch/ action that EASA were apparently asking for a few weeks ago??

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Hasn't been mentioned again by EASA although it could be a technicality to do with recertification and they can't require it an bit like sorting out the trimming. Maybe it will be required for the MAX 10.

It could be such an ability was technically another 12-18 months to get through and they want to get the plane flying again this year.

 

[dik]

From a recent trade journal, "Boeing will cut more jobs as it continues to bleed money and its revenue fades during a pandemic that has smothered demand for new airline planes.

The company said Wednesday that it expects to cut its workforce to about 130,000 people by the end of next year, or 30,000 fewer than it began with in 2020. That is a far deeper cut to its workforce than the 19,000 jobs the company said it planned to trim just three months ago."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[davefitz]

3 interesting tidbits related to the 787. First, several international airlines refused to accept delivery of 787's if they were built in south carolina, due to QC isssues. Second , Boeing announced it will relocate all 787 production fromn everett washington to south carolina. Third, washington state ballot initiative #35 would prevent the state from adding a $1 billion tax onto boeing ( over 10 yrs) ( the tax was proposed in order to close budget gaps).

My guess is the boeing claim to move to south carolina was a practical protest against the $1 billion tax. If initiative #35 passes and the tax is revoked, then boeing might change their mind, but it would increase the pressure to change the washington constitution to allow income taxes, at least on a county basis.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[dik]

Just got this...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The 737 sim is commonly used for checks when you go for jobs even if its for a turboprop. Its also used for doing a course in Euroland called the Multicrew cooperation course which is about working together as a team and communicating not flying the aircraft type your using the sim of. We do it before the first multicrew type. This is mainly due to the huge numbers of 737 sims and also the availability. So most of us at some point have flown the 737 sim in a very reduced form. As you can see from that pic there is buttons and switches everywhere. But that doesn't give the full picture.

You have the over head panel.

And then the infamous CB panel. This is the main one behind the LHS but there is another smaller one behind the RHS.

There is quite a few QRH procedures that require you to find a CB on those panels using a grid allocation and pull it. Which is what the stick shaker cancellation discussion is all about. One pilot has to get out of there seat to find it and pull it. And as you can see by the cockpit picture there is no space left to put a button.

 

[moon161]

@dik, artist didn't manage to label the powered trim cutout, did they.

 

[dik]

@moon...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

moon there isn't on one in the max apparently there is only a electrical trim motor isolate which covers both flight control mandatory inputs and electrical manual trim control. Unlike the NG.

Once its off your on your own...... if you are inside the +- 10 knot window you can actually physically trim in....if your not you need to turn it on again against the QRH to actually survive.

 

[Sparweb]

Fixed that for ya.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[dik]

Hehehee...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Love it spar

 

[moon161]

Talk in the other thread about flying a plane with a loose elevator and a trim tab reminds me of a friend who had dinghy with a main and jib, a Laser II I think. He misbehaved somehow and his mother hid the rudder so the set the main and steered with the jib.