Boeing again 47

[3DDave]

Glad the union leadership has finally woken up. It would have been better 20 years ago; I long waited for Detroit unions to go on strike for better car designs and manufacturing standards in the 1980s to meet Japanese competition and that did not happen. These guys should have gone on strike for lowering manufacturing standards long ago. I expect that runup in the stock price was a salve to their consciences over the observed slips on the factory floor.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

https://www.npr.org/2024/06/13/nx-s1-5004725/boeing-737-max-southwest-dutch-roll

If someone says its pilot stupidity I am going to agree with them on this one.

Both in old school handling and following check lists.

That must have been hellish to do damage.

Thankfully flying a none stretched fbw I don't have to worry about Dutch roll. Unlike the Q400.

 

[JohnRBaker]

This is all we need, and this time, it's not just Boeing...

FAA Investigating Report Boeing, Airbus Used Parts Made From Fake Titanium

A parts supplier said counterfeit titanium had entered its supply chain via phony documents.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/boeing-airbus-titanium-spirit-aerosystems_n_666c6da9e4b0c029c19dc882

An excerpt from the above item:

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating after a major manufacturer for Boeing and Airbus said some parts for commercial jets may have been fabricated using counterfeit titanium.

The FAA said in a statement to HuffPost that it is looking into the scope and the impact of the issue, and cited a disclosure from Boeing about a “distributor who may have falsified or provided incorrect records.”

The inquiry was first reported Friday by The New York Times, which found a manufacturer called Spirit AeroSystems had used titanium “sold using fake documents attesting to the material’s authenticity.”

According to the paper, a parts supplier first sounded the alarm after finding tiny holes in the material due to corrosion.

Spirit told HuffPost it removed all of the potentially phony material from its inventory as soon as it learned of the issue.

. . .

The company manufactures fuselages for Boeing and wings for Airbus, Boeing’s European rival.

According to the Times, the issue is limited to jets manufactured between 2019 and 2023, specifically Boeing’s 737 Max and 787 Dreamliner, as well as Airbus’ A220.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[SWComposites]

https://www.seattletimes.com/busine...eit-titanium-got-into-boeing-and-airbus-jets/

The issue appears to date to 2019 when a Turkish material supplier, Turkish Aerospace Industries, purchased a batch of titanium from a supplier in China, according to the people familiar with the issue. The Turkish company then sold that titanium to several companies that make aircraft parts, and those parts made their way to Spirit, which used them in Boeing and Airbus planes.

In December 2023, an Italian company that bought the titanium from Turkish Aerospace Industries noticed that the material looked different from what the company typically received. The company, Titanium International Group, also found that the certificates that came with the titanium seemed inauthentic.

bought from a supplier in China; I'm just shocked; who would have thought this could possibly happen?

 

[SnTMan]

But the price couldn't be beat

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[3DDave]

Faked certs and material substitutions are not uncommon; the last big scandal was a company raiding scrap yards and falsifying the part history, even for turbine compressor or turbine blades.

I wonder if there was some machinist unexpectedly having to tweak a process that worked just fine until that material got to his shop. Could that be used as a way besides an expensive chemical analysis to see if the material isn't what was called for?

It happened like that when I spec'd 7075 for a part, the shop used 6061, and the anodizing supplier called and asked what the hell was up. That call did not come to me, but to our shop that did the substitution, but that secret didn't get kept long.

 

[hokie66]

Another Southwest Airlines incident requiring further pilot training.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/southwes...es-comes-within-400-feet-pacific-ocean-report

 

[3DDave]

From the FoxNews link: "The Boeing aircraft dropped from approximately 16,000 feet to just 400 feet above the Pacific Ocean" is how almost every landing at an airport near the Pacific Ocean happens. Most drop even further if the airport is lower. I have been within what felt like 6 inches of the Potomac River on several flights into DC. And once it was a roller coaster ride that cause me to fill the air sickness bag on the third attempt before diverting to Dulles.

The actual report is "Southwest Flight 2786 dropped from an altitude of roughly 1,000 feet to 400 feet above the ocean in just a few seconds, according to data from ADS-B Exchange, a flight tracking website. The plane, which was near Kauai’s Lihue Airport, then began a rapid climb."

"The less-experienced first officer “inadvertently” pushed forward on the control column while following movement of the thrust lever caused by the plane’s automatic throttle. The pilot then cut the speed, causing the airplane to descend. Soon after, a warning system sounded alarms signaling the jet was getting too close to the surface and the captain ordered the first officer to increase thrust. The plane then “climbed aggressively” at 8,500 feet a minute, the memo said."

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2024...l-rapid-descent-off-kauai-being-investigated/

NYPost is even more addled. "It fell at an alarming rate of more than 4,000 feet per second, according to Bloomberg" I can't read Bloomberg as it is paywalled.

 

[3DDave]

A sane report of the incident:

https://simpleflying.com/southwest-airlines-boeing-737-max-8-400-feet-ocean-approach-lihue-airport/

 

[hokie66]

Maybe saner, but still conveys the same message. It was pilot error, and the airline needs to do better training. The passengers expect a flight from Honolulu to Lihue, not a roundtrip to where they started, for no good reason.

Is this a more palatable source to you?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-investigation-southwest-flight-hawaii-dropped-over-ocean/

 

[3DDave]

The full memo is at

https://x.com/jonostrower/status/1801692533656846741

simpleflying did not have the same message - not 16,000 feet to 400 or 4,000 feet per second descent rate. Whatever Rupert Murdoch touches turns to sensationalist misrepresentations.

The CBS report had less information than simpleflying and added the Dutch roll event into the article for no particular reason, but at least it didn't misrepresent the event.

The only thing that is missing from the dynamics is what the g-load was, as a descent alone doesn't make for much of a roller coaster ride without the wind blowing. It doesn't seem like there was a particular disturbance in the cabin from the change to descent or from the change to climb after. I'm sure there was some, but not enough to contact the news.

It was part of pilot training to gain hands-on experience in the cockpit under a stressful condition that is difficult to simulate and under the watchful ear of the Captain who corrected the problem.

There is this very concerning snippit:

If the autopilot did get reconnected where did the FO think the autopilot would take them? It needs to be told something - altitude hold, for example.

 

[SWComposites]

Great, just freaking great. Where do they get the brilliant idea “the airplane is in trouble and warning sounds/messages are going off, so I’ll just turn on the autopilot and everything will be ok”?

 

[TugboatEng]

That sounds a lot like the to MCAS crashes. The pilots were overwhelmed and their reaction was to put the plane in auto to alleviate their mental load.

Remember recently the 767 leaving Hawaii that dove when the autopilot was engaged and required a 3g pull up.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Was trying to find how much it costs companies to keep an airline pilot legally current in the USA.

Biz jet the flight safety course is around 45k$ per year per pilot if you do two of them at same time.

Can't find anything for the likes of southwest who will have Thier own check airmen and Sims.

 

[1503-44]

Boeing just needs to change their shingle to rollercoaster business.
Problem solved.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[hokie66]

Maybe more appropriate for Southwest Airlines.

 

[Sym P. le]

[URL unfurl="true"]https://rollercoaster.fandom.com/wiki/Highest_G-Force_on_a_Roller_Coaster[/url]

It sounds like 4G is the acceptable limit for paying thrill seekers. Milage may vary.

 

[3DDave]

"The pilots were overwhelmed and their reaction was to put the plane in auto to alleviate their mental load." wasn't a response to MCAS, it was a response to the stall warning. ET-302 continued with that strategy right to the end.

In this case the FO was overwhelmed; the Captain was not. It was planned for the FO to train the missed approach and I think a lot of things were learned.

 

[1503-44]

Why design a civilian airliner to overwhelm pilots, or if airlines persist in flying rocks, they need to train pilots enough so that they are not overwhelmed. You cannot have one w/o the other.

That the FO cannot properly handle a stall, or was it even a stall, is a complete disgrace.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[LittleInch]

I think that's part of the issue, the 737 was designed in the 1960s and hasn't been updated in lots of places.

But there is a lot missing here such as how the FO apparently leant on the control column and seems to be surprised the aircraft dived??

Was the plane on A/P?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.