Bread and butter civil engineering tasks for work on the side. 13

[proletariat]

It is sometimes embarassing to not know how to do some of the bread n' butter civil jobs that the average member of the population thinks we should do. I'm doing a little exploration into some of these things, which I hope will pan out into some side-jobs. I'm looking for items that your average contractor will deal with regularly, so there will be sure to be demand for these services.

Structural timber (houseplan) review and sealing seems to be a very self-contained activity which would be ideal for side work. I've been reviewing the structural wood class I had in college. I also plan to order some of the books from the American Wood Council, which I understand is the primary design manual for the residential timber industry.

On-lot septic seems to be another of these, but the design materials are a little more difficult to locate. It seems that this is learned more by rote and OJT than in a design manual. There are some regulations in the state code, and a state DEP seweage enforcement officer manual, but I haven't had a look at it yet.

Any other ideas?

 

[MrMojito]

Doing a side job in addition to your regular employment would be considered a temporary phase until the side jobs grow to a proportion that justifies terminating your regular job.

In addition, I've had plenty of employers who have taken advantage of me. So have my other engineering friends. Why shouldn't the tables be turned once in a while? From what I've seen ethics are optional for most businesses and only when it suits them.

 

[solid7]

Doing a side job in addition to your regular employment would be considered a temporary phase until the side jobs grow to a proportion that justifies terminating your regular job.

That might be true if you are in college, working at McDonald's, and doing an internship.

It is my belief that the key to this whole thread, is that engineering isn't the kind of work that lends itself well to "part time" plus a regular job. There are many variations of the old saying, "a man cannot serve 2 masters." That's really the main point.

I am always keenly aware that I can be wrong about any subject. But here are the questions that I'd like to pose to anyone who is:

A) discussing the idea of "part-time" engineering
B) arguing passionately in favor of it
C) really believing that it works

How exactly do you "grow" a "side" business? How do you devote enough attention to 2 jobs to see that you can hold one, and grow the other, during hours that coincide with each other?

When is the crossover point, at which you decide to go full-time? When is it wise to drop the "regular" job, and concentrate full-time on the other? How will you gain new customers in the meantime? How many opportunities will you miss along the way? What kind of reputation will you have as a businessman if you are known as a "part-timer?"

I have yet to see anyone really develop this topic in an intellectual manner. There is a lot of "what if" and "but I could", but if I were a debate moderator, I wouldn't be convinced that it works....

Of course, this isn't really a debate, but let's be fair to someone who is getting themselves into something. They asked a question in good faith, and as patrons of the forum, and business owners, we owe it to them to give an honest answer, even if it isn't what they might want to hear.

From what I've seen ethics are optional for most businesses and only when it suits them.

That's a wonderful attitude. You have no right to accuse ANYONE, if you are willing to do the same things - it's circular reasoning, and certainly counterproductive.

Many of us who are in business see it as a way to do things as we would like to see them done. (not as has been done to us) I am only speaking for myself, when I say that my professional reputation means so much more to me than "getting even." Hopefully, I'll be stunningly successful, and I'll have a chance to be a model businessman and citizen - someone that other people would like to work for, and see as a good mentor.

I guess it's pointless to discuss the merits of ethics with those that have none, though.




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[solid7]

One more point on the subject - I've seen many more entrepeneurs who have started engineering businesses, only to END UP with a "side" business - than I have seen, who successully transition from "side" job to full time self employment.

The moral? - You've got to be good to be a full-timer. How much better, then, to be a part-timer?




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[johnwm]

Could you explain which part of my original post you take such exception to?

I didn't feel that you were attacking, so much as *speaking for* others, who *include* myself - and I wholeheartedly disagree with your comment. (did then, and do now)

My comment wasn't intended as a statement of personal opinion for or against free enterprise, or for or against restrictive practices, and certainly wasn't trying to speak for you. It is and was a simple statement of fact. Raising entry barriers is a method of reducing potential competition. It seems fruitless to engage on a questioning of my background and experience rather than recognising business reality.

I still consider your comment about me being out of place in this forum as an unwarranted ad hominem attack

Good Luck
johnwm
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[solid7]

I still consider your comment about me being out of place in this forum as an unwarranted ad hominem attack

I told you that I disagree with you statement, because you dropped it like a little gift, didn't define context, and seemingly expected that everyone would understand. Who were you talking about? Who is it that you think is raising the entry barriers? And in what area do you speak of?

Your "statement" leaves me asking more questions than it answers!

I also told you - If you have experience, I respect that - but your statement, as I viewed it, lacked tact, given the order in which it appeared, and the lack of explanation. You stated it so authoritatively, that it seemed that you were expecting it be accepted by all.

I was hoping that I could draw you back for an explanation... (hence my statement - "if I'm wrong" - a bit of a troll I admit)




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[nnjunger]

Many people who do engineering on the side also aren't interested in growing a large business, but rather to have an opportunity to work on other stimulating projects, as time allows, and as a way to supplement their income. I know that is my case. I do not have the time to devote to starting another full time business, I do not have sufficient start-up capital to abdandon my current job and still support my family, but I would like to broaden my horizons, expand my network, learn new things (you learn from every project you work on), and if I can add a small amount of money to my balance sheet in the process then that is great.

Just my two cents.

 

[RDK]

Optional Ethics?

Ethics are what you do for yourself not for or in response to the actions of others.

If someone treats you in an unethical manner then that is one issue, it does not grant you permission to retaliate in an unethical manner or to treat someone else in an unethical manner.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[stanier]

Solid7

The moral? - You've got to be good to be a full-timer. How much better, then, to be a part-timer?

I gave you a star for this one

Amen

 

[uncivilized]

Proleteriat
I suggest that you offer your services to surveyors that need engineering work done. This is a good way to get started since they already have the clients. You could do drainage studies, hydro reports, flood studies, simple subdivision design, etc. Let me know what you decide to do. I do think that you would be better off being full time but the reality is that you have to start somewhere. If you are careful you can be ehtical about this....but do get insurance.

 

[stanier]

Ah! "Insurance" The White Man's Burden . Ref Goonshow 1950's BBC Radio. Goonshow recordings available from all BBC and ABC shops.

For those who dont know this radio programme look for Harry Secombe, Spike Milligan, Peter Sellers, Eric Sykes and Michael Bentine biographies. Its a British thing that may have got across the Atlantic.

 

[BJC]

proloteriate
Your getting lots of advice so let me throw in my 2 cents worth.
If you weren't makeing enought or needed more money and took a second job working the night desk at a motel, selling used cars or flipping hamburgers would it necessarly be any of your employeers business?

If you do get part time work do't let it interfear with your primary job, no phone calls, no time off etc. Whoever your working for will have to understand that your not availabel at times. If they need you for a day take vacation or time off without pay. If your were flipping hamburgers you wouldn't do that on your regular job time, treat the engineering work the same way.
Keep the job to yourself. Let people find out you have a mistress before they find out you have another job.

You will use some of the knowledge you gained from your presnet employer. But then you brought some of your books and infomation to them and you brought a hard earned education. I doubt if they payed for your education. The body of knowledge that is yours is a result of your experience you'll take it with you to your next job and the next. When you leave your present job the HR people aren't going to put on darkglasses and flash a red light in your eyes to make you forget all you learned. It's a two way street, they gain you learn.

Be prepaired to pay the price, if they find out and are jerks you may be on the beach.

 

[stanier]

BJC

I dont think money is as important as independence in this issue. the poster of this message appears to want to move to an independent operation and use his employer base as a springboard. If wanted money we wouldnt be engineers would we, independent or not?????

 

[greenone]

"If you weren't makeing enought or needed more money and took a second job working the night desk at a motel, selling used cars or flipping hamburgers would it necessarly be any of your employeers business?" BJC

Well, it might be, depending on what the work is. If you take a position as City Council member of a city that your firm does work for, you have potential conflict of interest issues. My employment contratc specifically states I need to notify my firm of outside employment, to head off potential conflicts of interest, and to prevent me from competing with my firm.

"If they need you for a day take vacation or time off without pay." BJC

This too can be a problem. If you're working on the side, and on short notice need a day off, that screws up the schedule for the day job. Been thru this with a former employee-had meetings planned, and they call in they need a day off. You need to be responsible about this. A day off without pay still costs the day job in overhead. Your salary is only about 75% of your cost to your company.

 

[proletariat]

Two posts to this thread were on topic. Mr. (or Mrs.) Uncivilized and ZCP; thank you for your advice. I don't know who's questions the rest of you were answering.

 

[uncivilized]

No problem. It is Mr. by the way.

 

[alcap]

there was a large case here in alberta recently written up in the PEGG

An engineer would stamp anything, I mean anything for $100.
when looking at builders and house plans we saw his stamp everywhere.
every time you asked who would stamp or calc his name came up. the builders though it ws fine, but everybody else was driven out of the market.
it caught up with him a in a major failure failure of
a system he had no design or calcs, and it failed. Fines and lost his license, his firm , name dragged through the mud. trouble is , nobody will touch that market here now because of the ridiculous expectations he created of professionals by the builders and the industry.
ie they still want to pay $100

 

[solid7]

I don't know who's questions the rest of you were answering.

I'm sorry that you can't endure sound business advice. If it's "bread and butter" that you want to earn, then you're certainly entitled. I'm sure that you'll have no problem making exactly that - and some of us should have known better than to infringe upon your modest quest. It's just that most of us are used to making real money, and may have mistakenly thought that you would only be interested in pursuing a truly fruitful venture. (hence the unsolicited advice from people who are ACTUALLY already in business for themselves) You have my most sincere apologies.

Please follow up, and share your experiences, preferrably at 3 month intervals. That way, this topic may never have to come up again.




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[AZengineer]

RDK,

I am thinking about starting my own company. I would ideally like to be in the position where I can dedicate a large portion of my time to giving irrelevant advice on internet blogs. I noticed that you have a lot of advice, and a lot of time. Could you please give me some suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[GregLocock]

AZkiddy

RDK has a successful business and he spends time here advising people, usefully. You on the other hand, don't appear to do either, at all.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[RDK]

Azengineer

Be organized so that you have time to devote to your hobbies, like participating in internet discussion sites.

Never be a smart a$$ and deliberately pi$$ people off because sooner or later it will come back at you.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com