BSME in email signature? 8

[kevindurette]

I work as an applications engineer and reverse engineer for a distributor, and many of our clients have little or no college education. The term "engineer" seems to be loosely tossed around by people all over this industry. I did not take my FE exam, though, so I cannot call myself an EIT. Would it be appropriate to put BSME at the end of my name in my email signature? It doesn't seem to be a title that people often brag about; I'm sure my bachelor's degree required only a fraction of the work it must take to earn a doctorate's degree. It might clear up questions of credibility with customers with whom I have not yet dealt, however. I don't want to come off as arrogant either, though. What do you think?

 

[Ron]

Photoengineer....I'm a P.E. and I have plenty of work to do...always have and hopefully always will.

David's comments (zdas04) are exactly on target. This is offered as help to those who might find themselves at odds with various state laws. They vary from state to state, but in general, licensed engineers are protected from non-licensed engineers usurping the term.

I know that if a person graduated with an engineering degree, that individual would expect to be able to use "engineer" as a title. In many cases they can; however, when services are offered to the public at large or when opinions or evaluation are given to the public at large, they cannot use such terms unless properly licensed. The licensing is not an intrusion to the profession in my opinion. It is truly there to protect the public. Further, if you are not licensed and you make a bad engineering decision that results in a loss, then you can be held liable only in a civil sense. If you are licensed and you make the same bad engineering decision, you can be held criminally liable. Believe me, that little distinction will make you think twice about your engineering decisions.

If you are a licensed engineer and you don't respect that premise, in my opinion, you shouldn't hold a lioense.

Ron

 

[brandoncdg]

My brother who is a surgeon thinks engineering is much harder than med school. I think that's why a P.E., S.E. or similar has a lot of respect in the community. Most people when asking what my degree is in, don't really know what more to say after I tell them.

Now realize that eventually soon the board will require some form of masters to take the P.E. test. Registered engineers want to be paid as much Doctors and Lawyers and have the same respect. I can't wait to get my license.

I don't think anyone who has their degree or learned this as a trade has anything to prove.

Civil Development Group, LLC
Los Angeles Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading

http://cdg-ca.com

 

[Ron]

Uh....photoengineer...you might want to read a bit farther down in the law in the state in which you are licensed...it includes the term "engineer" as one who is regulated under that law. (See Title 2, Chapter 15, Part 17, paragraph 37-67-102, Montana law).

That is similar to many states...in one form or another, they regulate the use of the terms "engineer", "civil engineer", "mechanical engineer", "professional engineer", etc.

 

[photoengineer]

Ron,

The quote from the chapter you cited is:

"(b) by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or in any other way represents that the person is a professional engineer or through the use of some other title implies that the person is a professional engineer or is licensed under this chapter; or"

It does not include the general term engineer.

I think Professional Engineering is a profession worth respecting, but it is the title Professional Engineer that should be protected, not the general term engineer (unless your state protects the general term engineer).

I have many friends (as in 90% of my coworkers) who are not licensed and callt themselves engineers. I do not make a fool of myself by pointing out to them that none of them can call themselves engineers. Some of my corworkers have PhD in engineering - do I dare tell them they are not real engineers? No way.



Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[photoengineer]

Folks,

I want everyone to know that I respect the profession of engineering in general and the professional engineer in particular. What I am saying is that it's not wrong to call yourself an engineer if you have a degree in engineering and no license.

What's wrong is to hold yourself out to be a professional engineer (or other term that indicates a state-licesend type of engineer) when your not.

I work at a company that has about 20,000 engineers and maybe 200 - 500 of them are licensed. The other 19,500 are still engineers, just not Professional Engineers.


Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[KENAT]

Photoengineer, as someone in exempt industry, who doesn't have their PE (time/cost/effort not obviously worth it for what I do & my background) your viewpoint from someone with their PE is refreshing. Perhaps I'm mistaken for thinking this and am responsible for the low pay/status a lot of you seem to think you get etc. however there it is.

Anyway, do we really have to do the PE V non PE/who gets to be an engineer... debate again that comes up so frequently with no resolution?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[KirbyWan]

As an engineer I can read all the snippets of law from various state codes and come away confused. Let me throw out my situation and ask for people to comment on what is acceptable.

I have a BSME from Kansas State in 06. I passed the FE exam. I am currently working as a Liasion Engineer for an MRO designing repairs for aircraft nacelle systems. On my buisness card I have the title Mechanical Engineer, however I don't really pass a lot of them out. I don't offer my services as an engineer beyond the company I work for. Oh, and I live in Oklahoma.

Am I in error? When people say licenced engineer does that mean specificlly having passed the PE or is there some other licencing that is available. I ask because I know in aerospace there are not that many PE's. It's becomeing more popular, but when i hear PE, I think Civil or Arch. If I'm just desinging a new widget I don't think I need a PE to sign off on the drawings for it.

In your answer to my questions please share if this is how you interpret the law, and or if this is what common practice is. Which way are the engineering professions going?

Thanks, and as an Engineer, I both want to obey the law and meet peoples expectations about what I do and what I'm authorized to do. I also want to be the best engineer I can.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

 

[zdas04]

Normally I would ask you to start a new thread, but this one is so far into the weeds that maybe it is alright.

First, it is rarely good idea to ask medical advice from your bridge club or legal advice from a bunch of Engineers. There are shades and nuances in this topic that are way beyond most of us. We tend to be better at solving physical problems than at splitting hairs.

That said, most states have laws prohibiting someone from "holding themselves out to the public" as an Engineer without a state license (P.E.). None of the state boards have a large enforcement staff (in my state the enforcement department is one retired Engineer and his administrative assistant) and rarely go looking for violations. If a complaint is filed, then they will usually try to find an administrative solution (most common is a "cease and desist" letter with no further penalties if you comply).

So, you have a business card that says "Mechanical Engineer" which is probably against the law on its face (giving the card to someone outside your company might be offering Engineering services, it is hard to tell). On the other hand you are not alone. Thousands of individuals without a P.E. have similar references on their business cards and stationary and nothing ever happens to virtually all of them. Every now and then there is a complaint and the people are asked to stop "holding themselves out" as Engineers.

I used to work for a large multi-national company with a lot of Engineers. We all had that word on our business cards. A year before I got my P.E. the company got a letter from the Texas Board of Licensure for Professional Engineers requiring them to stop this practice. All the Engineers in the U.S. got a letter from Legal telling us to destroy any cards that had Engineer on them unless we were P.E.'s. I can't remember a single person that destroyed their cards and in a few months no one could remember having gotten it. I don't think the Board ever followed up on the letter after the company sent them a copy of the e-mail that went out.

As Engineers, compliance with the law is a significant requirement. Getting in the habit of ignoring laws can be a slippery slope, but this one seems to be a really little law (right up there with the prohibition against jay walking) and each of us should spend a moment thinking about the value/risks of complying/ignoring it.

David

 

[photoengineer]

Kirby,

Aerospace work is generally regulated by the FAA and exempt from state licensing boards. For example, DERs that you work with very likely do not hold PE licenses even though they do offer engineering services. Most states don't want to challenge the federal government on who has jurisdiction, so they don't fight that battle.

You're fine putting Mechanical Engineer on your business card in my opinion. If not, and the state lets you know, you can always change it later.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[Ron]

Well said, David.

 

[EngAddict]

Ron & David, I understand where you are coming from but I think you are slightly off the mark. I think photoengineer is on the right track. If you have completed your Bachelors Degree in Engineering then you are an Engineer and have the right to call yourself an engineer, period. If your state, territory or country requires you to be licensed to practice then that is another story, it does not mean you are no longer an engineer, just not a licensed engineer, and by law cannot practice.

If your state doesn't require you to be licensed then your company or the senior engineer who is licensed and signs off on the work is liable.
I agree Professional Engineer, and Chartered Professional Engineer in other countries, should be protected from miss use by unlicensed engineers. The term engineer and in particular civil, structural, mechanical engineer, etc, should also be protected, from the general public or people w/o a Bachelors Degree (or higher) in engineering. That includes preventing Engineering Technologists and engineering officers from calling themselves by the title of engineer unless they include the correct classification of engineering to which they hold qualification.

Obviously you can only practice within your legal right based on the relevant laws in your region but you are still an engineer whether licence/registered or not.

Back to the original question, add your title, don't add your degree. You only get a suffix for your name when you hold a license or membership to a particular organisation. I see very often people add BEng(mech)(hons) but it is not a title and should be left off your signature. As covered before, adding Mechanical Engineer already means you hold that degree. if you are further qualified and hold a license then you can add PE or CPEng.

Just my 2c

 

[zdas04]

EngAddict,
You may think that we are "off the mark" based on your own logical argument. Your logic makes some sort of sense, but unfortunately it has exactly nothing to do with the way the laws are written.

David

 

[KirbyWan]

Thanks David, Ron, Photoengineer et.al. I think we are all thinking along similar lines. I don't expect people to whoop and holler over my listing of mechanical engineer as a job title. In a couple more years I'll try and pass the PE exam even if it's not critical to my industry. Mostly because my brother passed the PE and I need to show I'm as good as he is.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

 

[zdas04]

Kirby,
Good luck, I think you have as good a reason for sitting for the exam as I've ever heard. My reason seems lame by comparison (I needed it to be able to register my company as an Engineering firm in this state).

David

 

[Ron]

EngAddict

As covered before, adding Mechanical Engineer already means you hold that degree.

No, it doesn't mean that you hold the degree. It means you are calling yourself a Mechanical Engineer. That's why the laws are written the way that they are. Absent legal prohibition, you can call yourself anything you want. That's the problem. If you hold a license, it means you have met some specific requirements (including validation of that degree) and you are willing to take on the responsibility of your duty to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the public as a licensed engineer.

While an unlicensed person might well hold himself to such same standards, there is nothing that tells the public so, other than his ability to market himself. As we know many people, including some engineers, are good salesmen. If you were a member of the public who expected qualified engineering services, would you want that qualification determined by ones "gift of gab"?

 

[moltenmetal]

I sincerely doubt that any regulatory body could take enforcement action against a person from putting “Joe Blow, B.A.Sc. mechanical engineering” or the like on their business card or e-mail signature, if indeed that person had proof of the degree in question.

If the person put the words “professional”, “licensed”, “certified”, “registered” etc. in front of “engineer”, they’re in trouble because they’re holding themselves out to have a license that they do not possess, potentially misleading the public.

If the person lists their TITLE as “mechanical engineer”, they MAY be in trouble in some jurisdictions and WILL be in trouble in others, because this implies that their job description includes engineering that, depending on the jurisdiction, may require a license to perform.

As to whether the threat of enforcement against misuse of title is a credible one, that also depends on your jurisdiction. If you have a licensed colleague or client who has a bee in their bonnet about licensure requirements, they may (in fact they may have a DUTY to) complain against you, at which point the threatening letter will come in- and it’ll go to your boss, not just to you. In our jurisdiction, you are generally sent a cease and desist letter rather than being handed a fine automatically.

Common work-arounds for non-licensed engineers include avoiding listing a job title at all, rather choosing to put “Engineering department” etc. on their card. “Project manager”, “technical specialist” etc. are also popular.

 

[photoengineer]

I don't think someone with a degree in Mechanical Engineering working in an exempt industry should call themselves a "technical specialist". That's not good for our professional as a whole anyway that you look at it. Giving engineers the title of technical specialists sounds like a good reason to pay them less money, and we all know management would love to pay us less money.

(I'm speaking only to those working in exempt industries.)

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[SomptingGuy]

Funny.

Where I work (UK engineering company), a "technical specialist" is generally someone whos worked up through the various engineering grades and would rather stay technical than go into management.

- Steve

 

[Ron]

moltenmetal...Our State Board of Professional Engineers sent my former employer a cease and desist letter to stop using the term "Project Engineer" for anyone other than a licensed engineer. We were using the term for Engineer Interns (EI) as well as licensed engineers, depending on their project involvement. We were also told we could not use any title that contained the term "Engineer" in it unless the person was licensed. Oddly enough, the state's DOT uses titles such as "Engineer I","Engineer II" and similar, even though those engineers are not necessarily licensed. A double standard, I suppose.

Their ruling seemed to be slightly at odds with the state law at the time (it has since changed), but they were not willing to back off. Our corporate counsel just told us to comply and not make a big deal out of it.

My point is that, yes, they do enforce such on occasion.

 

[kevindurette]

My current profession is exempt from licensure under F.S. 471.003(2)(c)

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES..._Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0471/Sec003.HTM

With this particular exemption, F.S. 471.031(2) says it's illegal to suggest that I have a license, but it goes further to say that it's illegal to use the term "engineer" without an approved four-year degree.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES...TM&Title=->2009->Ch0471->Section 031#0471.031