(can of worms alert) Globe hasn't warmed in the last 16 years 76

[beej67]

Worth a read. One significance of the article to me is the 'skeptic' isn't a loon, she's the head of the EAS department at Georgia Tech.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-report-quietly-released--chart-prove-it.html



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

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[ornerynorsk]

All ethanol is denatured at the facility. Definitely not a good idea to drink it!

Also, 39.7% of statistics are made up on the spot, without any scientific data to validate them. (I just made that up)

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Or for that matter, why not grow hemp for ethanol:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/09/1014706/-Industrial-Hemp-can-save-America

And speaking of hemp and sugar beets for use in biofuel production:

http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/9383/company-eyes-hemp-as-feedstock-for-biofuel-power-generation

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

Cranky,
SnTMan makes a good point. What those purchased individuals will tell you is that there is no industry in a better position for mass production than corn. Those guys go from the field to actual kernels of corn in the silo without being touched by human hands. I've watched Sugar Beet harvests in Colorado and it looks to be as far from mass production as it is possible to be. Tree fruits are the same way. Capital for diverting corn from animal feed is much less than the alternatives (cane sugar has reached a similar level of automation. Since the incentives are WAY out of line with the benefits to society, no one expects them to last very long so diverting capital by industry was not going to happen.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[Brad1979]

The 97% stat comes from a survey. Here is the paper that gives the results of that survey. The following questions were asked:

"1. When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?

2. Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?"

Of the people who "listed climate science as their area of expertise and who
also have published more than 50% of their recent peer-reviewed papers on the subject of climate change," 96% answered "risen" to the first question and "yes" to the second question. Another paper came up with similar figures.

So, it isn't invented but it is a survey so it shouldn't be taken too strictly. But there have been numerous papers and studies that have attempted to get a handle on how many scientists accept AGW and the results are always similar.

 

[SnTMan]

Yeah, a long time ago I picked apples. Once.

Regards,

Mike

 

[ornerynorsk]

Sugar beets are highly automated and are never touched by human hands, as well, at least in the upper midwest. But, they deplete the soil terribly so that's a huge problem. Corn and sugar cane are near-perfect materials, from a production standpoint.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[GrandpaDave]

Yes... The "97% of published climate scientists blame humans for global warming"
appears to be made up by the author of the TWC article. Until I see proof and understand the proof from
scientific research, I'll remain a skeptic.

 

[beej67]

So here's a nonsequitor, but I ask everyone this and nobody can tell me why it's a bad idea, so I figured I'd ask some smart engineers the question and see if I can dig out an answer. It's not engineering related, so I don't want to start a new thread on the subject, but this one has turned into a tax argument anyway, and it's my thread, so I feel justified in further pushing the derailment.

Right now we borrow or print 40 cents of every dollar we spend, in terms of US federal spending. We tax 60% of spending, and we borrow/print the other 40%.

The Reds and the Blues argue whether this number should be 39% or 42%, but none of them except for maybe Ron Paul think we should actually balance the budget, and all of them seem to think that a debt to GDP ratio of around 80%, which is what we've got, is no big deal. They always go back to this debt/GDP ratio to justify never ending deficits.

Well if that's the case, why don't we just cut federal spending by 60% and do away with taxes entirely? Just borrow and print the whole shebang? Wouldn't need any "tax incentives" at all at that point, and corporations all around the globe would flock here. Couldn't hurt the economy. Debt wouldn't be growing any faster than it is now. All the laid off federal workers could get jobs in the economic boom it'd cause. Social Security would take a hit, but SS earnings wouldn't be taxed anymore, so that'd mitigate it some.

What am I missing?

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[GrandpaDave]

beej67... "What am I missing?" You are using common sense. That does not apply in Washington, DC unless you are Ron Paul
(or maybe Rand Paul?) and a few others like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan. It's all about the "here-and-now" Don't worry about the
future. Tax, borrow and spend. [Repeat], [Repeat], etc., etc.,(Oops, Also keep the money pressing printing too)...

Oh... Open up the attached file to see the POTUS hard at work?

 

[SnTMan]

beej67, politicians NEED a complicated, ever-changing tax code and regulatory environment. This is how they exercise power. This is how they reward and punish.

Regards,

Mike

 

[KENAT]

"why don't we just cut federal spending by 60%" which 60% do you propose cutting?

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[cranky108]

Has any one seen baby carrots. What they are is the little carrots that they at one time would throw away. Now they sell them to a new market.

I had an apple tree once, and a quarter to a third of the apples fell on the ground. No one wanted to eat them, but could they not have been collected to make ethonol? Granted one tree is not enough, but the fallings from a orchard could fill several drums, of which could be sredded and water added, so the fermintation could start before the fruit left the field.
The fallings could be transported to the local brew house and converted to an enriched product there, to be transported for final processing.

Have I over simplified the new revenue stream for farmers, or any parts of the process?

 

[TomDOT]

"Baby Carrots" aren't really baby carrots. They are full-size carrots which have been machined down to smaller size. If you look at them closely, they do not have a skin.

Downed apples traditionally were used to make apple juice/cider for consumption. The pulp left after pressing was used as animal feed (and for all I know, still is.)

 

[GrandpaDave]

TomDOT... "machined down"... OK, where does one go to buy a carrot machine which spits out little baby carrots
at the other end... John Deere, Allis Chalmers, International Harvester, Toyota? Sounds like a cool project for an AgEng.
Any AgEngs on these forums?

 

[KENAT]

cranky108 - that's called scrumpy/cider making. Given the effects of scrumpy on ones digestive tract I'm hesitant to suggest using it as fuel in any machine you care about.

(Plus if you use it all for fuel what are English homeless folk meant to drink?)

Posting guidelines faq731-376

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[GrandpaDave]

CONFUSING... The original topic of this tread has faded away. Sorry about adding to the dribble?

As the old General wants said, "Old soldiers never die, they just fade away.” I'm fading fast...

 

[beej67]

Grandpa Dave, look into the actual numbers and you'll discover that Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney advocate borrowing or printing 38% of government spending, compared to Obama's 42%. The differences between the "establishment" republican spending plans and the democrat plans are really fairly minor in terms of how big a deficits they run. Look closely, and don't listen to pundits, run the numbers yourself.

"why don't we just cut federal spending by 60%" which 60% do you propose cutting?

I propose cutting 60% of everything. That might suck for some people but the jolt the economy would get would more than compensate. 60% less social security seems bad until you realize you're suddenly paying 0% tax on the SS you do get, and the economy is booming around you. We'd still be spending as much on defense as we were in 2000, and if we quit playing Team America World Police that's more than enough to guard the western hemisphere.

Plus, did I mention no taxes?

If people truly believe that our current deficits are near sustainable, I don't see why we don't just do my idea instead.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[CajunCenturion]

I think the atmosphere just went up another degree.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[JohnRBaker]

What am I missing?

If you're serious about finding that out, may I suggest that you Google Noble Prize (Economics) winner "Paul Krugman"...

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[GrandpaDave]

Beej67... "actual numbers"... ? What? Isn't that a, or is it an, Oxymoron?
Who or what is the gate keeper on the "actual numbers"? There is too much fuzzy
math out there in government-land. Do YOU have a published document
with all the real, actual numbers? I think not! It's whatever bottom
line one wants. Like the ends justifies the means... Smoke and Mirrors to
create mass confusion?...

I guess I'm too old to understand your wisdom... But I don't trust a soul in the Federal,
State and Local governments. If they open lips and talks beware. Fool me once shame
on then, fool me twice... and you know the rest.

OK, I'm off my soapbox, let me know where the "actual numbers" are kept. Thanks