[Canada] 33 year old ex-military thinking of taking mechanical engineering 6

[jpgbexplorer85]

Hello folks:

I became a member on this site a few days ago. However, I have been lurking on here for a while and have been all over the place reading threads. I'm amazed at the wealth of knowledge on here. I'll admit that quite a few of the topics here are way over my head. But I keep coming back to find out more.

So I am located in Victoria, BC, Canada and finished my contract with the Navy 3 years ago. Since I got out, I have been struggling with trying to choose a career path. I know that I am leaning toward engineering/science/trades.

I don't necessarily want to do my hobbies as a career. However, a self-help book I was reading was talking about analyzing all the interests/hobbies that I have stuck with and find the common themes.

1) The interests/hobbies that I have stuck with have the following things in common: open-ended, opportunities for tuning/experimentation/improvement, use of tools, exploring, analyzing data/results, thinking/planning ahead, getting sensory feedback/results, and sharing results with others. Also, I have a tendency to not take things at face value. I like to dig deeper and find out why something works, and why something happened. Based on the above, do you think I have the aptitude to be an mechanical engineer? Or would the technologist or trades route be a better way to go?

2) This question is for those of you that have gone back to school as mature students. Because of my military service, there is a grant that will cover a good chunk of my tuition should I choose to go back to school. I am also debt-free. This is a huge help. Covering living expenses will be my main problem. How did you support yourself while going to school full-time without burning yourself out?

3) Another dilemma I am having is deciding if I want to be either an engineer or a technologist. They both seem to have their pros and cons. Below are some of my observations based on some threads I have read on here and elsewhere.

Engineering Pros:
- Career mobility
- Engineering degree seems to be more legit in the eyes of an employer
- Better lifestyle in general
- More stability

Engineering Cons:
- Four year degree program: I am on the fence about whether I want to live as a broke student for 4 years. I have already been living with sustenance wages for the last 3 years. I am not sure if I want to do this for another 4 years. However, the upside is that I would be working towards something instead of drifting around aimlessly.
- More rigorous education: I am well aware that an engineering program is really demanding. I am not sure if I could keep up with the program while working at the same time. However my work ethic, time management, and organization skills are a lot better now than when I was in my teens/early 20s.

Technologist Pros:
- Education takes less time (2-3 years) so I would be back in the workforce and making money sooner.
- Appears to be more hands-on than the engineering route.

Technologist Cons:
- Questionable career mobility
- Technologist education credibility appears to be scrutinized by employers more. When I am done with school, I want to get a job and minimize the amount of BS games when trying to get hired.​

All this has been percolating in my mind for some time. I want to start moving forward in my life and get out of the pickle I am currently in. However, I am frustrated that I haven't been able to make a solid decision and commit to it (fear of buyer's remorse??).

I would really appreciate any advice to help me answer these questions. If you need more information about my background, I would be happy to explain that as well.

Thanks!

James

 

[CWB1]

My $0.025 having been down a similar path but stateside.

I grew up in several successful family trades-businesses, served 18-24 active duty US Army as a vehicle mechanic & fabricator, a year of reserve duty my first year of college and was out at 25 with a stack of trade certifications and experience. I then graduated a year early with a BSMET & 160 credits (poor scheduling on the school's part prevented a <3 year graduation). To be blunt - I work hard, am pretty good at automotive mechanical design, and a decade later I'm in the top 10% of ASME incomes and have corporate recruiters chasing me. That said, I have considered going full time with some of the fabrication and repair work that I've always done on the side. While working for someone else in the trades would be a step backward in terms of income, I have spent the last decade working as hard as a small business owner and have known more trades-business owners with massive success than I have owners of engineering firms. While I truly love design engineering and particularly the automotive industry, I'd be remiss if I said it was an easy 9-5 job. In reality its more of a lifestyle than an occupation with an ever increasing number of after-hours emergencies, global meetings, travel, and research/reading requiring extra work for no reward as you move up through the ranks at most companies. Outside of the construction/CE world which doesn't pay MEs too well, its also a very urban-centric career, and industries tend to be very regional. It also doesn't have the greatest job security like many others today, so plan to be laid off at inopportune times. Personally I would recommend evaluating your desired lifestyle and location, and being realistic about your abilities. If you want to work for somebody else then no doubt an engineering degree brings in more income. If you can be successful as a business owner you'll do well regardless. If you want small town or rural living then mechanical engineering probably isn't for you.

Regarding a technology vs an engineering degree, my advice if pursuing an engineering career would be to pursue a bachelor's in either and complete it in the shortest time possible. The comparison in the OP seems to be a ASET/2year vs a BSME/4 comparison, and yes that is applesranges in terms of knowledge that fresh graduates have and thus, a big difference in terms of income and career growth as any AS vs BS comparison is. Regardless, IME a bachelor's is a bachelor's and the demonstrable ability, knowledge, and work ethic (graduate early!) of the individual make more of a difference than degree as the majority of the coursework is the same. If I had to give a slight advantage to one however, I would say that BSMETs typically make better engineers due to the additional required practical coursework in design and manufacturing, which is likely why we earn slightly more. No doubt there is some discrimination from folks not familiar with degree details, however those typically are the folks you don't want to work for regardless and either a MSME or PE are two easy ways around that issue.

 

[jpgbexplorer85]

So I was read through the engineering labour market pub that moltenmetal posted yesterday. Definitely some grim reading for sure. Amazing that only a 1/3 of graduates actually end up working in engineering. This was published a few years ago. I imagine recent economic events and the Alberta oil market tanking haven't helped either. Considering those odds, I am wondering if going through all of this would be worth the effort.

What I am inferring from everyone is that:

1) If I do choose to pursue engineering, I would be better off going for the degree. If things don't work out, it is easier to fall back to the technologist diploma.

2) Regardless of what I do, I should find a school that has co-op/intern/work term included in the program. In a way I have some work experience already (military), but I am sure more wouldn't hurt.

3) M_N talked about the TN visa that engineering graduates qualify for. Knowing this and the odds of finding work in Ontario (or Canada for that matter), it sounds like I should be open to travelling outside of Canada in order to find work.

 

[Sparweb]

Speaking as (maybe) the only technologist in the responses so far, here's a word in favour for it:

Some employers want to hire a technician to do work well above the traditional education and knowledge of most technicians. That is because they want to pay a technician's wages, and somehow get an engineer's knowledge in the same person. So I'm pretty keenly aware that I've been a bargain for my previous employers, and only as I approach 20 years experience do I dare raise my elbows in the corners to compete with the P.Eng's on salary. I know where my "value equation" lies.

I made the salary differential work in my favour, getting the gritty work while I was young and fooling enough to believe this was normal, and paid very little for unparalleled experience among the other graduates of my class (save one). I didn't start work at an isolated corporate office tower, but rather at a prototype shop with some desks and computers and a shoe-string budget. I was regularly kicked out the door to deal with issues in aircraft hangars all across the province (Alberta), and learned as much from people in the field as I did from my mentor at the home office. If I had been put into the same environment with a Bachelor's degree, rather than a technology diploma, I would have:
- known less of the skills needed to interact intelligently with the customers,
- known none of the safety regulations that determine so many decisions aero engineers make,
- had a managerial pretense completely inappropriate for a new-hire in a sole-proprietor business.

Judging by what you have written so far, jpgbexplorer85, it sounds like that has some appeal to you. However, a word of caution. Some of the advice you've been getting is that you could always try a tech diploma after getting the degree first. Baloney. You already have the technologist's experience. And your years of service record prove it. What good would another piece of paper be proving it again? You've done the gritty work. Now profit from it. You have the opportunity to boost your personal "value equation".

That's why I recommended the BS over the diploma. Not because I think the diploma isn't good. But because you don't need it! I think your experience sounds like the perfect complement to any Bachelor's you choose to get, putting you miles kilometers ahead of your classmates.

For all the Americans still reading, consider this: The director of the engineering department where I work is a technologist, among other things.
Who's got the land of opportunity for people with skill and can-do attitude now, eh?


No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[TLHS]

With some of the colleges in BC transitioning into universities, there are some interesting programs. For instance, if you go to BCIT they offer both two year mechanical diplomas and a four year degree with the first year being completely common between the two. You can pick what you want to do after that first year. If you go that route, you can get a foot in a door and a feel for things before you really need to decide.

https://www.bcit.ca/study/programs/mechanicalengineering

A number of colleges also have transfer agreements with UVic, UBC and SFU, where they offer a set of first year fully transferrable courses. What happens if you decide not to transfer varies between schools, but there's generally a certificate or transfer into a diploma program

 

[CWB1]

For all the Americans still reading, consider this: The director of the engineering department where I work is a technologist, among other things.
Who's got the land of opportunity for people with skill and can-do attitude now, eh?

For the sake of grins, I'd remind America's northern suburbs of your monarchy....and the letter B.

Seriously though, what you're describing is actually pretty common here stateside in product development & manufacturing, especially at smaller companies where work tends to be awarded to "those who can" rather than based on who went where. At the mega corps there are a few folks without degrees or with a 2-year at high levels within engineering but they're pretty rare, not uncommon at all to see them among the lower ranks however. More commonly, large companies will have folks in engineering roles that don't match their degree. Personally, I know quite a few BS computer sci/comp eng, physics, math, and "other" degrees that worked their way up as MEs or EEs through on-the-job learning, eventually moving into VP-eng and chief engineer roles. The disconnect between reality and the old, bad perception that folks need an engineering degree to be a successful engineer is actually a major criticism of engineering licensure stateside, many believe its discriminatory against good engineers while not being discriminatory enough against the bad.

 

[GroovyGuy]

Hey, why not go the BCIT route. That would enable you to at least get a Diploma of Technology in two years. After that you can decide whether or not to pursue a B.Eng., or carry on working. I know since that is what I did, although at the time I had to travel to Ontario to obtain my B.Eng. BCIT is an excellent school, and now that they offer a B.Eng. program, to complement their DoT programs, it's a no brainer. I know of many young engineers, that I currently work with, that went down the BCIT path.
GG

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

 

[jpgbexplorer85]

SparWeb:

I understand what you are saying. The technologist route allowed you to become more intimately familiar with the equipment in addition to all the little details. If you had started out as an engineer, you would have missed out on this (or it would have taken a lot longer to pick up on it). In my case I don't have a civilian technologist credential, but have similar work experience. Your point is that getting a civilian technologist diploma is not necessarily an upgrade in my situation.

TLHS:

Yes I have looked into some of those programs. I talked with an academic advisor at UVic last February about this.

Camosun College has a bridging program that would allow me to transfer into third year engineering. However, I would have to complete the two year technology diploma first. Then the bridging program is another two semesters.

The BCIT route you showed appears to be a much simpler way to go. I have read that there can be some disparity with the level of material taught in these bridging programs. For example: I have read that the calculus courses taught at the community college level aren't always up to par with the university. So what ends up happening is that the community college students don't have the same foundation that the first/second year students have. Whereas BCIT has a streamlined pathway for the diploma and degree under one roof. That seems to be a much better deal.

CWB1:

I am sure anyone with a STEM degree would be capable of taking on a specific engineering role if they took the time to learn the specific engineering skills required for the job. What happens if that person wants to move to a different company? Would that person still be hired as an engineer even though he/she doesn't have the formal engineering credentials?

GroovyGuy:

As I explained to TLHS above, I like how BCIT has a streamlined engineering degree/diploma program.

Did you finish the diploma at BCIT first and then transfer all your credits to Ontario? What school did you get your B.Eng at?

 

[CWB1]

I am sure anyone with a STEM degree would be capable of taking on a specific engineering role if they took the time to learn the specific engineering skills required for the job. What happens if that person wants to move to a different company? Would that person still be hired as an engineer even though he/she doesn't have the formal engineering credentials?

<Insert reminder that I'm stateside here>

Experiences will vary based on the position, manager, and candidate's qualifications. IME however, I would not doubt someone's ability to find a position in a similar role as what they've held at other companies as managers are typically more interested in past results and experience than they are degrees. If someone regularly earns patents or publishes papers and regularly holds key roles in big projects then I'd say they could go anywhere and do most anything regardless of education. OTOH, even highly educated folks with mediocre results and no patents/papers seem to struggle everywhere.

 

[GroovyGuy]

Howdy jpgbexplorer85,

Yes, I completed the 2 year DoT program at BCIT, and then worked for 6 years until I went back to Lakehead University (LU) to complete my BEng. The BEng program was five semesters (2.5 years), incluidng an 'optional' summer school introduction program. I was 29 years old when I graduated from LU.
Was it worth it? I'd say YES!
GG


"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

 

[jpgbexplorer85]

Thank you again to everyone who contributed! You all have been a huge help. I think mechanical engineering is the route I would like to take. Right now I am researching the various schools in Canada to see which one would fit my needs the best. Likewise, I need to get the financial side of things figured out too.

When I told a friend about what I was intending to do, he seemed to think that going to school full-time would end up costing less in the long run. My friend earned his degree part-time years ago. He said the part-time route ended up being more expensive for him. I kind of see how that can happen since you are dragging things out a lot longer. But the flip side is that I would at least have money coming in doing part-time. If I went the full-time route, that would be 3-4 years without any money coming in. So far BCIT is the only school I have seen that offers anything close to a part-time degree program (B.Tech w/ Manufacturing Concentration). However, this program isn't taking new admissions and is under review (whatever that means?).

 

[TheTick]

An alternative route into engineeringn is to by way of mechanical design. Get the two-year paper and get CAD-savvy, and you can start working in the industry, gain experience, and probably make better money.

You can do this in the US. Not sure if it can happen up north.

Also takes some discipline to not get distracted by half a career and go all the way.

 

[jpgbexplorer85]

TheTick:

I am working on getting some more experience with AutoCAD. I took a one month intro drafting/AutoCAD course this summer. The manual drafting was pretty interesting too (definitely an exercise in patience though). At this point, I am not sure if taking the other AutoCAD courses is worth it if I intend to go back to school anyway. Then I ran across these threads:

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=258898

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=288123

So I think I am going to buy Ellen Finkelstein's tutorial book and learn it on my own.

 

[TheTick]

AutoCAD will pretty much tie you to civil and structural. If you want to do product or machine design, you need to get parametric 3D (SolidWorks, Creo, etc.) But any start is better than none.

Remember CAD is just the tool. Knowledge about manufacturing and design and the ability to coherently communicate design knowledge are what makes a designer.

 

[SAITAETGrad]

Like Sparweb I graduated from a three year diploma (!). Why did I do that? Seemed like a good idea at the time. I was poor and recognized that I maybe wasn't the most motivated student to be spending years on campus. I wanted to get into a job ASAP. If you go the college route, you'll probably see in about equal measures those that are a) not really university material; b) poor & looking to minimize debt; c) second chance students w/ smarts & some university; and d) some combination of the above.

I leveraged some existing education & studied distance ed for the rest of the first year so I graduated after just four semesters on campus.

I looked at the Camoson bridge program. Instead I opted to challenge the P.Eng. examinations through the provincial association. I'm past that now (P. Eng. pending) but it was challenging to fit into my life.

The (accredited) BCIT programs have looked great. The legacy of teaching techs & technologists hopefully means these programs start from experiential as compared to most universities which start from fundamentals of physics. If you want become a P.Eng. eventually but would like to take your education in shorter chunks with some work experience - this seems right to me.

Note that if you get the bug for a masters degree, you may find a barrier with a degree from a polytechnic school. Even if it doesn't interest you now, ask them what you should expect.

 

[RodRico]

jpgbexplorer85,

I was a US Air Force Electronic Warfare technician then left and joined a defense firm where I worked my way up from technician to software engineer to digital engineer to engineering management to systems engineer. In the end, I was leading concept development, proposal preparation, and R&D program execution of advanced multi-function systems encompassing radar, EW, and communications for airborne platforms. I retired comfortably at age 55 as an Engineering Fellow, the top rank of engineers in the firm, with several patentable trade secrets to my credit and a salary well above the average for a CEO in the US. To accomplish this, I followed a continual program of self directed study.

I was constantly learning on my own via college classes, the internet, and personal investments in tools and equipment to develop new skills as I needed them, but I never did finish a college degree. I took a lot of flack early in my career for not having the degree, but was able to silence every request I get the degree by asking whether the company would prefer I continue working all the overtime I was known for or have me go part time so I could attend school. They always answered "well, we can't afford to lose you right now, maybe later." Eventually, not having a degree *benefitted* my career in two ways... 1) I always had a different perspective on challenges and solutions because I didn't follow the same course of study as most engineers and 2) everyone eventually decided I *must* be some sort of genius for accomplishing what I did with no formal degree (I always chuckled at this view because, in my mind, it was rooted in the false belief that the *only* way to learn was by listening to a professor lecture).

I mentioned earlier that a key aspect of my career was my own investment in the tools and equipment I needed to gain new skills. I bought a computer well before it was common and taught myself programming. I spent thousands on another computer that had the same processor as a key piece of equipment, wrote a Forth system on that computer, then ported it onto the equipment and wrote all the test software used for test and sell-off of the gear. I repeated this scenario several times to learn digital design, FPGA design, Digital Signal Processing, ADC/DAC and digital receiver design, and so forth. This experience leads to the main reason I decided to respond here.

Since I retired I've taken up design and development of a new patent pending engine architecture. My current efforts would not be possible without access to 3D CAD and simulation tools encompassing FEA and CFD. Professional tools of this type normally cost a *lot* of money (on the order of thousands per year), and that was far outside my budget. I discovered while searching, however, that one of the premier products, Solidworks, was available at enormous discount to veterans of the US and Canadian armed forces. I now pay $20 per year for Solidworks Professional with every tool they offer in the package.

Having access to Solidworks Professional for $20 a year has allowed me to become fluent in mechanical design... I started in 3D CAD, of course, then moved into FEA under temperature, and am now doing air flow, high pressure fuel injection, and heat transfer using CFD. The tools combined with a *lot* of internet research into mechanical engineering topics have been my classroom.

I highly recommend any veteran thinking of entering Mechanical Engineering take advantage of the Solidworks veterans program. One could easily imaging starting as a drafter entering and maintaining designs for others in 3D CAD while working up the skill ladder by learning to use the other tools. Combine this with some mentoring from fellow engineers in exchange for doing their grunt work, and a solid education can be had without having to suffer poverty.

Good luck in your new career!

Solidworks Veterans Program:

http://www.solidworks.com/sites/default/files/2018-01/EDU-MVPProgram.pdf

Free Training for Veterans:

http://www.cati.com/solidworks-training/free-solidworks-training-for-veterans/

 

[IRstuff]

RodRico, that's awesome!

However, I don't know whether you're the exception that proves the rule, but there are others who, likewise, don't have degrees, and are stuck in some sot of limbo. One guy couldn't move from his existing company, that accepted him, to any other company, because of the lack of a degree.

Another interviewee could only trot out a stack of certificates, awards, etc., showing the extra work he had done, but he had trouble figuring out some pretty basic things, so we passed.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[RodRico]

IRstuff,

Indeed, my experience is not the safest or most assured path to a successful career. Job mobility can be a challenge, but in my case, I worked in a small specialized community serving a small number of deep-pocket customers who gave me recommendations as I changed companies. I was rather surprised at the number of consulting firms that contacted me on retirement saying their customers suggested they call me.

If at all possible, folks who want to enter engineering should get an accredited degree from a respected institution. I sent my son to Cal Poly SLO for his ME degree, for example. Like me, however, he's an autodidact with ability crossing many disciplines and is well known in the community of Silicon Valley start-ups. His reputation is his ticket; his degree is just an administrative box check at this point. Given the preponderance of on-line open courseware, I'm sure there's an increasing number of people like myself out there, and it requires only a shortage of candidates with paper credentials (as we suffer today) before employers open their minds.