Career Decision Advice 7

[JungleJoe]

Hi everyone, hoping to get some input on a career decision that is eating me up inside. I'll try to be as succinct as possible.

I am in my early 30s. I worked for a small firm from the time I was in school until middle of last year doing strictly residential work. Wasn't making tons of money there ($82k salary), but I thought what I was making was fair. I left the firm last year to start my own firm doing the same thing (residential engineering), mostly because I thought the owners of the firm were the worst people I've ever known in my life, but also for the potential added benefit of making more money on my own.

I've been out on my own for nearly a year and things have been going better than I thought they would at the start. I have a couple of clients that make up about 80% of my business right now, and then random contractors/architects/homeowners making up the rest. Revenue for the first year is $140k. After taxes, that's quite a bit more than I was making before. I haven't done any marketing because I haven't needed to so far. I've had plenty of things to do with engineering, running the business, etc. I figure that at maximum capacity my revenue could be somewhere between $170k-$200k before I'd need to bring someone on to help. The thought of hiring people scares me to death and I don't know if I would pursue that route if I got super busy.

A major issue for me right now is that I don't have any co-workers to discuss engineering questions with. I have 10 years of experience in this industry so it's not like I don't know what I'm doing, but as I'm sure you have experienced, each job has its own new little challenges or things you haven't seen before. I miss having engineers around me that I could discuss these challenges with so we could try to come to a consensus on what the best thing to do would be. The discussion boards here have been helpful on some of the questions I have had, but it's not the same as working with other people in an office. I am a perfectionist, which has been to my detriment working on my own. I stress about the smallest details, even details that I know won't matter all that much in the grand scheme of the structure. I live in mortal fear of messing something up, missing a spot footing, making a mistake that will cost someone their life, etc. I have insurance of course, but that doesn't make me feel any better. I believe that I am a good engineer, but an irony on being on my own is that the more I learn and the more I research and the more books I buy, the less I feel I know. I am plagued by self-doubt. Going out on my own I completely expected the stresses that come with running your own business, but I was not prepared for this side of it.

Due to the issues described, I have thought maybe I should just go back to working for someone else. I think, "That way I have people to discuss my questions with." I say to myself, "That way I can come home at the end of the day and not get ulcers thinking about this or that tiny little detail that I'm not 100% confident in." On the other hand, I'd make less money, and I'd feel like a failure for giving up on something that was going quite well. I used to read 2 books a month for fun, but since starting this company I haven't read a single book for fun since I'm always working on the business or stressing about this and that. I think to myself, "Maybe I should go back to the 9-5 and get my life back"...I have friends at a couple of other firms in the area who have let me know that there's always an opening for me at their firm if I'm interested. So my questions are...

- Am I crazy for thinking about going back to being a regular employee? I'm making way more $$$ on my own than I could if I went back. I'm my own boss, for goodness' sake! I can do whatever I want!!
- Those of you who are out on your own, do you miss having a support system? Do you regret going out on your own at all?
- Are any of you constantly plagued by self-doubt? Were you able to overcome that? Advice on changing my personality so I can enjoy the ride a little bit more?
- Any other thoughts?

I would really appreciate any feedback that you all have. This decision is really tough because no matter what I do I feel like I will regret my choice and wish I had chosen the other thing. Give it to me straight, I value your experience and opinions.

 

[Aesur]

@JungleJoe - Give it some more time, one year isn't enough time to make a decision in my opinion. The first year will always be tough with setup, marketing, etc. You mention you make more money now, however I bet you have a bigger appreciation for the pay you received at your former employer, especially if you are now working more hours. I found when starting a company, even with a few partners, you tend to work a lot more hours, I average 60+ hours a week for the past 3 years and it isn't letting up yet, however I enjoy having more control over what I do and getting my name out there instead of being in the background doing the designs without my name on the project. It wasn't always like this however, I struggled with the loneliness feeling (we work from home) and with the fear of lack of knowledge or making a mistake. I still struggle with this, but it's greatly improving as I do more and more projects. As others have said, this forum is amazing for obtaining help and feedback.

I'm not sure what your market is like in your area, but I would recommend looking to get into some commercial work here and there, the fees are better and the workload is less versus custom houses. One thing I keep hearing, but have yet to see (I suspect it's coming soon) is that you should make the money while you can because at some point projects will be fewer and further between resulting in you having time to rest and relax.

A piece of advice to maybe help you with your doubts, is to know what you don't know and seek help when needed, weather it be through outsourcing to another engineer who is experienced in that area or by asking questions.

 

[skeletron]

What you described is relatively similar feelings I(...and apparently others) have had when working alone. There's some really good chat above that I plan on catching up on later.

This is what stuck out for me to comment on:

Those of you who are out on your own, do you miss having a support system? Do you regret going out on your own at all?

In my practice, I require a support system. This is a result of what the regulator requires (ie. secondary reviews, documented checks, etc) and how I came into sole practice (ie. laid off and having a health condition).

Here is what I do to replace the support system:
1. I have pretty solid text/email relationships with a handful of other engineers. Sometimes these people check my work, sometimes these people give me work, sometimes these people want casual "real" technical conversation, and sometimes these people just want a casual conversation because everyone's so isolated.
2. I check these forums and engage where I'm able to do so.
3. I still cold call other engineers too, especially aging engineers that are on their own too. Usually that conversation has a purpose, but many are willing to have a chat. They likely haven't had many opportunities to spread their knowledge. Good for business and good for understanding your (our?) own self-doubt as well.
4. I spend a good amount of time making sure I'm still challenged technically. Learning, reading, making my own studies, etc. While this kind of touches on the "overworking" thing that's part of the problem, I feel that a support system also needs to challenge you so you keep improving. No one else is around, so I try to make up for that.

 

[Ahmad Uzair Arshad]

Op is writing my words.

Cant you help you as I am figuring myself how to balance these emotions.

Fazlur rehman once said,

The technical man must not be lost in his own technology. He must be able to appreciate life, and life is art, drama, music, and most importantly, people.

Seems like he may have struggled with it too.

 

[Brad805]

I believe that most members on this forum, except for the retiree's, suffer from analysis paralysis of some degree. It sounds to me you have a good start, so I would keep going. A few notes:
1. Dig thru all your projects and figure out which made the most money or caused the most stress.
2. Develop a client/project interview process that is suited to your ambitions or lifestyle. You do not need to take on all projects that come thru your door, and you need to steer clear of those that you know suck the life out of you. Learn to say no.
3. Hiring staff is not a problem. Finding reliable people that will fit with your company and ideals is the problem. You can read all the resumes you want, but until you actually have someone under your flag you will not know if they are better at talking or doing. I have hired many young engineers over the years and it is challenging. The pandemic has opened a lot of options for remote solutions, so you could look at something like that to reduce your risk.
4. You need engineers you can email/call to talk to. The technical discussions here are very useful, but you still need a more traceable review system.

 

[KootK]

The "legal difficulties" you mention sounds ominous.

Read all about it here. When I bust my hump on a complex stability thread, I might earn two little purple stars for my effort. In contrast, if I share my story about how I got beat like mule last summer, it rains little purple stars (14 to date). I think that's telling. We technical men bleed just like everybody else and the human drama of life is always the biggest story in town.

The odds of you experiencing legal difficulties similar to what I experienced are vanishingly small. So don't sweat that. The point to recognize, I think, is that pretty much every entrepreneur that I know of has some kind of story like mine eventually. It might be a legal issue, a financial issue, a human resources issue... whatever. The common factors will be:

1) It's an issue that you didn't see coming.

2) It's an issue that threatens to swallow you whole.

3) It's an issue that you do not get paid to resolve.

As another example, one of my mentors basically spent a decade in court defending himself because a truss erector forgot to install the nails in a major girder hanger. Similarly, our own BAretired got embroiled in a bullshit differential settlement claim for a project on which he specifically warned his client about differential settlement. I also know a very shy fellow who stares at my chest when he speaks to me because he doesn't super love direct eye contact. That didn't go over so well with his female employees.

Your "ask" here is one of the more mature versions of the "I want to go out on my own" threads I feel. Usually, it's just "where will I find clients and how much more money will I make". That stuff is vitally important, of course, but one also needs to price in the monetary and emotional costs of the non-engineering aspects of the work as well as the black swan events that are ubiquitous in the business world.

In reading this thread, I've also thought of an additional "pro" for partnerships that you might want to target. Partnerships among folks with disparate skill sets can be very productive. I've seen a number of successful pairings between a rock star business development guy and a rock solid production guy. There's an obvious symbiosis there. This arrangement tends to disproportionately favor the production guys because they tend to have less access to equity opportunities.

 

[KootK]

One more observation that aspiring entrepreneurs rarely think of. In some respects, having been on your own may make you less employable from the perspective of any future employers. That, because:

1) Some employers worry that the liability that you accrue in your own work has the potential to follow you to your new employer.

2) Rightly or wrongly, it is sometimes imagined that, once someone has learned to survive on their own, they'll never be able to fully buy into being an employee again.

Of course, if you bring $3M worth of your own work to any new employer, that tends to have a way of trumping all other concerns.

 

[phamENG]

Rightly or wrongly, it is sometimes imagined that, once someone has learned to survive on their own, they'll never be able to fully buy into being an employee again.

KootK - it's funny you mention this. I feel it the other way around. It's a source of negative motivation for me, because I'm not sure that I would be able to go back again. So I have to make it, because I feel like there's nowhere else to go.

 

[KootK]

It's a source of negative motivation for me, because I'm not sure that I would be able to go back again. So I have to make it, because I feel like there's nowhere else to go.

I agree, I feel that too. For me it's double edge sword:

1) The sink or swim aspect of it is often motivating and exhilarating as you say.

2) While my former colleagues are getting big promotions and coffee table book architectural assignments, I'm fairly stagnant in those dimensions. I'm growing in other dimensions but, as you can imagine, these things still tug at my heart. Much more so the assignment quality than the promotions but, even at that, I'm not completely immune to the allure of status.

One of my favorite clients does a lot of municipal, "qualifications based" work. Those qualifications are tied to the firm and not the man so I'm no longer qualified. Once in a while, he'll call me up and say "great news, I've got some work that doesn't require qualifications so I can use you!". Imagine how that feels to me, holder of a master's degree, licensee in some of the toughest jurisdictions on earth, and former project engineer of a few museums and data centers.

As Sheryl Crow elucidated for us back in the 90's, it's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got. That's easier said than done of course.

If you're going to be an entrepreneur, then I think that it's wise to choose that adventure and then really try to love that adventure for its own sake. I try to read a few MBA type books every year to try to keep my head a little bit in that space.

 

[kipfoot]

- Am I crazy for thinking about going back to being a regular employee?

No. Others have offered sound advice on partnership, mentorship, therapy, etc., and maybe in the end you'll find that you prefer being part of a bigger team. Though, I wonder if you'll feel better after your current projects run their course and get constructed with minimal difficulties. Then, with time, you'll have proof that what you're doing is just fine.

as long as you're smart and coordinate vacations, you might actually be able to take a vacation.

If you're on vacation further than nags head and need in-person eyes on a project let me know.

I hate to say it but I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a bit of a mental health crises endemic within our profession.

When I was in a situation that put me under the cloud of work related anxiety, poor sleep, and malaise, an old friend I was talking to observed, "It seems like you'd go out on the ledge if you weren't too worried about its structural capacity."

at some point projects will be fewer and further between resulting in you having time to rest and relax.

This is not how it goes, in my experience. When the overall economy tanks (2001, 2008), all your projects have gone on 'hold', and you have x months until you can't pay your employee, I find that resting and relaxing are not on the menu.

I've seen a number of successful pairings between a rock star business development guy and a rock solid production guy.

I spent my formative years at exactly this type of firm. The name on the door was a gifted speaker and big name in preservation. The production guy was an old codger from a skyscraper firm. RIP to them. I learned a lot from both.

 

[phamENG]

If you're on vacation further than nags head and need in-person eyes on a project let me know.

Thanks for that. It occurs to me that for that to work, or our standing lunch invitations, we need to know who we are. Check my profile for enough information to figure out my old school email. I'll take it down again later this afternoon.

 

[Aesur]

This is not how it goes, in my experience. When the overall economy tanks (2001, 2008), all your projects have gone on 'hold', and you have x months until you can't pay your employee, I find that resting and relaxing are not on the menu.

Good point if you have employees, I'm thinking more along the lines of no employees as working as yourself. Hopefully the engineer would have made what he could when he could and be fine to last a year or so until it picks up. I also find that sole practitioners may fair better during these times as they can reduce their fees and get by with lower income and less expenses. Just my thoughts having not dealt with it yet (Covid only slowed us down for a few months and then things exploded with lots of projects).

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

“A mental health crisis endemic within our profession” - Wow Koot, that’s spot on.

Ever growing insurance costs, stress, deadlines getting tighter and tighter, always being blamed when something doesn’t meet an already tight budget, more red tape and administration than engineers have ever had to deal with before etc etc. I’ll be honest, all of this gives me anxiety which spills over into other aspects of my life.

 

[kissymoose]

If it's just a few strategies you need to help identify and deal with specifics, you're going to go for a small handful of sessions unless you want to keep jumping back for accountability reasons

I think this is important, if you do go that route. I don't mean to discourage, but psychologist hunting can be taxing and require paying, opening up, and saying goodbye to a few before finding someone who clicks. I've tried to do this exact thing, in dealing with anxiety regarding the work. It's important to know what it is you want from them and communicate that from the get go, and also some of your best help could come from friends, family, and here and doesn't require behavioral therapy. I'm open to the discussion as well TLHS.

you need to steer clear of those that you know suck the life out of you. Learn to say no.

Absolutely. A string of life sucking projects, or even one bad one, can really do a number on you. For me, it can even spread to my other projects and make everything harder to enjoy. It's like putting on your own oxygen mask before helping others. Taking every project you can is a good value to have in your role, but saying no to ones that you think will go poorly should take priority.

While my former colleagues are getting big promotions and coffee table book architectural assignments, I'm fairly stagnant in those dimensions. I'm growing in other dimensions but, as you can imagine, these things still tug at my heart. Much more so the assignment quality than the promotions but, even at that, I'm not completely immune to the allure of status

I believe this has been a thing for you for a while, and I share it. Have you found other types of work that help fill the desire? Things like designing the unique elements on a big project for the fabricator, going residential with top local architects and expensive houses (I wonder who does these), etc.?

We all know you shouldn't believe the grass is always greener in another pasture, so job hopping every year or two won't satisfy, but some pastures are legitimately greener (or the grass is easier on your stomach over there). I think it's also your responsibility to know yourself and what environments you work best in. I've known people forced out of oppressive jobs after many years, and it's like they stepped out of caves into the sunshine, not realizing that work (and life) didn't have to suck that much.

 

[KootK]

...more red tape and administration than engineers have ever had to deal with before etc etc.

Currently, the one that saddens me the most is the professional development and quality control stuff being foisted upon me by the the fourteen different jurisdictions that I'm presently licensed in. Each one seems to think that they are the unique center of the universe. Not a single month goes by where I don't get some goofy, all caps headered email telling me that I'm failing in some arena of skills maintenance or quality control. Professional development, which was once a source of joy for me, is now just another tedious chore. Meanwhile, we do 5X more genuine PDH work right here than our non-participating colleagues do pretending to watch Hilti videos and attending "pretty projects of the month" seminars.

Have you found other types of work that help fill the desire?

No, I've mostly accepted that I'm impossible to sate when it comes to cool assignments. A fundamental tenet of Buddhism proposes that desire is the root cause of all human suffering. Like Sheryl Crow, I've come to the same conclusion.

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

Ahh the dunning kruger effect. I much preferred it years ago when I sat right at the very top of that curve..

 

[structuralCADspecialist]

In my area we need the competition provided by people like this. Most all of the residential engineering firms in my area are.... not great. They operate more like an oligopoly. I suspect that is why they have become not only inefficient, but also the quality of design work is rock bottom.
If an engineer who would otherwise be a competent and diligent sole proprietor did in fact run their own practice, I would say they actually have less of a chance of being involved in "bad" design work. Case in point: I once saw engineers basically just ignore a peer review (and it was a well-executed peer review). If you work for a company that engages in bad practices, you are "helping" them even if you aren't directly involved in the bad projects. I should note that "bad" projects seem way more common in the residential sector; working in other sectors is obviously an option (and usually pays better!).

I think a huge problem with engineering right now is the lack of start-ups. There are more and more credentials required to work on certain types of structures. And it seems more and more common that people have to work under senior engineers in order to achieve these credentials (essentially trapping them at these firms). Lots of these places are becoming career killers.

I'm not sure how to alleviate the self-doubt or the fear of something going wrong, but I think an ethical engineer starting their own firm is doing a world of good.

 

[bones206]

I live in mortal fear of messing something up, missing a spot footing, making a mistake that will cost someone their life, etc.

I think having these fears is part of the gig of being a structural engineer, but we have to learn to live with it - even embrace it. Things like missing a footing on a plan, those mistakes are just symptoms of human fallibility that WILL happen. We can mitigate those by instituting reasonably rigorous QC procedures. But at the end of the day, we have to be ok with making mistakes like that and not let it affect our self-confidence or mental health (or ego). It's ok to make mistakes sometimes. I love it when contractor's giddily point out some minor mistake on one of my plans in front of the client, trying to make me look bad, then get a bit deflated when I humbly thank them for their diligent backcheck and catching my oversight. It's a novel idea I know, but people actually respect you more when you own your mistakes. So I don't think we should live in mortal fear of those types of minor screw ups, which more often than not get caught by someone at some point in the process. Just address them when they happen and keep moving forward. It's really our egos that are afraid of being bruised, so humility actually works to protect us in a way. This is why the case of LeMessurier is often taught in engineering ethics classes, to try to train us to overcome that instinct to protect our egos. It's important to note that he wasn't burned at the stake by the engineering community or blackballed from the industry, but is in fact universally respected for owning his mistake and doing what needed to be done to fix it and move on.

With errors that could affect life safety, that is definitely a valid fear. I don't see how working for yourself or for someone else would affect the intensity of that fear, besides from a liability standpoint. But from a moral standpoint, we are always on the proverbial hook. I think for the most part, being honest with our level of competence and taking on projects within our abilities is the big key here. The Hard Rock Casino in New Orleans is a good example of someone getting in way over their head and costing lives. Another good tool is to look at each project holistically and ask yourself, "what is critical here? what has the most potential to cause harm if it fails? what serviceability issue is most likely to get me sued?", then focus on getting those critical items right. Of course we always try to design everything correctly 100% of the time, but I think psychologically it can be helpful to do that exercise to help reduce any nagging self-doubt before you put a design out on the street.