Career Decision Advice 7

[JungleJoe]

Hi everyone, hoping to get some input on a career decision that is eating me up inside. I'll try to be as succinct as possible.

I am in my early 30s. I worked for a small firm from the time I was in school until middle of last year doing strictly residential work. Wasn't making tons of money there ($82k salary), but I thought what I was making was fair. I left the firm last year to start my own firm doing the same thing (residential engineering), mostly because I thought the owners of the firm were the worst people I've ever known in my life, but also for the potential added benefit of making more money on my own.

I've been out on my own for nearly a year and things have been going better than I thought they would at the start. I have a couple of clients that make up about 80% of my business right now, and then random contractors/architects/homeowners making up the rest. Revenue for the first year is $140k. After taxes, that's quite a bit more than I was making before. I haven't done any marketing because I haven't needed to so far. I've had plenty of things to do with engineering, running the business, etc. I figure that at maximum capacity my revenue could be somewhere between $170k-$200k before I'd need to bring someone on to help. The thought of hiring people scares me to death and I don't know if I would pursue that route if I got super busy.

A major issue for me right now is that I don't have any co-workers to discuss engineering questions with. I have 10 years of experience in this industry so it's not like I don't know what I'm doing, but as I'm sure you have experienced, each job has its own new little challenges or things you haven't seen before. I miss having engineers around me that I could discuss these challenges with so we could try to come to a consensus on what the best thing to do would be. The discussion boards here have been helpful on some of the questions I have had, but it's not the same as working with other people in an office. I am a perfectionist, which has been to my detriment working on my own. I stress about the smallest details, even details that I know won't matter all that much in the grand scheme of the structure. I live in mortal fear of messing something up, missing a spot footing, making a mistake that will cost someone their life, etc. I have insurance of course, but that doesn't make me feel any better. I believe that I am a good engineer, but an irony on being on my own is that the more I learn and the more I research and the more books I buy, the less I feel I know. I am plagued by self-doubt. Going out on my own I completely expected the stresses that come with running your own business, but I was not prepared for this side of it.

Due to the issues described, I have thought maybe I should just go back to working for someone else. I think, "That way I have people to discuss my questions with." I say to myself, "That way I can come home at the end of the day and not get ulcers thinking about this or that tiny little detail that I'm not 100% confident in." On the other hand, I'd make less money, and I'd feel like a failure for giving up on something that was going quite well. I used to read 2 books a month for fun, but since starting this company I haven't read a single book for fun since I'm always working on the business or stressing about this and that. I think to myself, "Maybe I should go back to the 9-5 and get my life back"...I have friends at a couple of other firms in the area who have let me know that there's always an opening for me at their firm if I'm interested. So my questions are...

- Am I crazy for thinking about going back to being a regular employee? I'm making way more $$$ on my own than I could if I went back. I'm my own boss, for goodness' sake! I can do whatever I want!!
- Those of you who are out on your own, do you miss having a support system? Do you regret going out on your own at all?
- Are any of you constantly plagued by self-doubt? Were you able to overcome that? Advice on changing my personality so I can enjoy the ride a little bit more?
- Any other thoughts?

I would really appreciate any feedback that you all have. This decision is really tough because no matter what I do I feel like I will regret my choice and wish I had chosen the other thing. Give it to me straight, I value your experience and opinions.

 

[human909]

Ah the perfectionist and often hand in hand the high achiever syndrome! I've been meeting a few of those types recently and better understanding their challengers. I'm not sure quite where on the scale you are but too much either or both can be debilitating and quite harmful to one's mental health. If you think this affects you severely it could be worth seeking out some advice from a mental health professional. I say this as somebody sympathetic and empathetic to those who have such challenges. I pick up some anxiety in your post hence I've jumped on this aspect.

Advice on changing my personality so I can enjoy the ride a little bit more?

If this is pervasive throughout many parts of your life I'd seek help. I know several VERY successful people who have had crippling self doubt and anxiety and just pushed on through. It can take a huge toll and isn't sustainable.

However as this is an engineering forum I'm going assume it isn't particularly severe and is more an engineering confidence challenge than a broader personality challenge.

I believe that I am a good engineer, but an irony on being on my own is that the more I learn and the more I research and the more books I buy, the less I feel I know. I am plagued by self-doubt

That isn't ironic. That is the Dunning Kruger effect. That is great news and it shows you are on the path to become an expert! (hopefully)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

"It's actually worst in people who study the Dunning–Kruger effect. We tried to organize a conference on it, but the only people who would agree to give the keynote were random undergrads."

ALSO VIEW THIS"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oje0529NZkw

Am I crazy for thinking about going back to being a regular employee?

No you are not crazy. Not everybody wants to handle the additional challenge and stress of being independent. There is a certain attraction to clocking in and out at employer and leaving your work behind. It is a lifestyle choice. Though given your apparent success so far it seems sensible to stick it out for a bit.

Are any of you constantly plagued by self-doubt? Were you able to overcome that?

Personally, I always am second guessing my judgments. It is part of my analytical nature. Though for me it isn't about perfectionism and self doubt it is about rational analysis. I am just checking, checking and rechecking. I'm a confident self assured person, but I also know I am failable. I approach engineering challenges for different directions and ensure my judgment is sound. This is good engineering though some of the checks might be able to be scaled back once it becomes intuitive. But there is a difference between diligent checking and crippling self doubt. You want the first and not the second.

I believe that I am a good engineer

Start to self reflect on this. If you ARE in fact a good engineer then develop the confidence in yourself. Look at all you have achieved it sounds impressive. Unless you have just been doing everything by rote (which some people manage) then you likely are a good engineer and have the makings of a GREAT engineer.

Although there is a possibility that you aren't and hence the continuing self doubt. I bring this up because some diligent people often achieve alot through hardwork or simply copying. You don't know what you don't know. I have diligent colleagues who I doubts about their abilities. Diligence can only go so far.


Anyway that is enough of a reply for the moment. I'll leave others to have their input. For some perspective it sounds like I'm a less experience engineer than you but I am older and likely have more life experience which plays into some wisdom in this topic. Making serious decision is stressful and tough and isn't necessarily for everybody. My recreation is in rock climbing and making literal life/death assessments of the suitability of a marginal piece of equipment is often part of the sport. Some people choose not to play that game, others relish in it because you are other there making decisions that MATTER.

 

[XR250]

Stick it out. You have a really great support system here! I have been out on my own for 25 years and can't imagine working for someone else.

 

[bridgebuster]

I agree with XR250, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here who are always willing to offer advice. I've done side jobs over the years but never had the desire to work for myself full time - the fear of winning work played a part and the thought of running a business didn't appeal to me. Anyway, could you hire a retired engineer on an as-needed basis to look things over and provide you with a sanity check?

 

[canwesteng]

Some great points from human... but the grass isn't always greener. I often turn to eng tips with questions even with a bunch of engineers in my office, the quality of discourse here is often unparalled.

 

[dvd]

Seeking out a business partner comes to mind. The partner may even be more comfortable with the HR side of things.

 

[phamENG]

First, get out of my head. I may be a few years older, but had a brief first career before getting into structural engineering so we're pretty closely on track and have virtually identical experience (though my practice is wider ranging and includes commercial, industrial, etc.).

Am I crazy for thinking about going back to being a regular employee? I'm making way more $$$ on my own than I could if I went back. I'm my own boss, for goodness' sake! I can do whatever I want!!

Yes and no. As human beings, it seems we all have two rival desires at our core - the desire to be free, and the desire to be secure. You need to take a good long look in the metaphorical mirror and decide which is more important to you. Just remember that you'll never be half as free as you think you are on your own, and the security provided by a small engineering firm is as thin as the paper establishing the company.

Those of you who are out on your own, do you miss having a support system? Do you regret going out on your own at all?

Yes and yes. Eng-Tips has been a huge help, and I have a couple of mentors I can reach out to if I'm really stumped. Do I regret it? Every time I have to get up from the dinner table and go to my office rather than to the floor to play with cars or Legos with my kids. Also this morning when I found out somebody may want to sue me for what somebody else didn't do. Love it.

Are any of you constantly plagued by self-doubt? Were you able to overcome that? Advice on changing my personality so I can enjoy the ride a little bit more?

Every drawing I send out. I too, am a perfectionist, and I know that nothing I send out is perfect and I also know I can never even approach perfection. It kind of eats me up inside a bit. I wouldn't change your personality, but trying to develop a better understanding of how our drawings are used and how to make them more perfect for how they're used has helped some. My grandmother used to tell me as a kid "Good enough is never good enough." It's given me a drive to always improve, but it has a dark side.

For my part, I know that I enjoy structural engineering, and I love organizing and running my business. I also know that I can never be happy working for somebody else in this industry again. So while the stress sucks and I'm not entirely convinced the risk is worth the reward, I'm going to stick it out. At least until a better opportunity presents itself, which I'm not holding my breath for.

 

[KootK]

I've struggled with the same kinds of issues as an independent and that has led me to make a serious study of the handful of independent guys that I know out there that are:

1) Absolutely killing it.

2) Making it look easy.

It's always the same. Compared to me, these guys are much more comfortable with risk and delegation. I've grown a lot in those dimensions over the years but I'm still nowhere close to being able to kill it and make it look easy. See my lengthy contribution in this thread for a fine example of just how "not easy" I do, in fact, make it look at times.

A friend that I rely on for savvy business advice described these qualities, and business acumen / risk tolerance in general, as mostly a personality trait. I've found that to be accurate, even though I would very much like for it to be something that can be taught. For the most part, you're just you. And you'll likely be happiest doing whatever honors your particular "you-ness" rather than trying to rail against it.

Truly, I wouldn't sweat the technical stuff. If anything, I'd recommend a business mentor / coach. Such a mentor is usually readily available if you actively seek one out, paticularly in larger urban centres.

 

[JungleJoe]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

If you think this affects you severely it could be worth seeking out some advice from a mental health professional

My wife suggested this very thing to me a couple of days ago. Guess I really should look into it. I appreciate the advice coming from someone older than me. The older I get the more I realize how important it is to talk to people with more life experience than we have.

the quality of discourse here is often unparalled

I've noticed that too as I've been a lurker here for years. Many times I'd come to my boss with a question that he'd waive off as unimportant or give me an answer that I didn't feel quite right about it. Then I'd come here and find that many engineers are asking the same questions I've always had, and a lot of the answers that my boss gave me were roundly criticized.

For those of you who bring up taking on a partner...I've had that idea but it disappears as fast as it arrives because I think what experienced engineer in their right mind would want to join my little shop right now? They'd have to bring some work with them because I don't have enough work or make enough money for another engineer right now. I don't know how I'd begin to find this person, other than texting my 3 friends in the area who have been working at other firms all these years.

phamENG, nice to meet another stress ball lol. Sorry about the potential lawsuit, that totally sucks. Getting sued is a great fear of mine. Sounds like you maybe haven't been out on your own for super long like XR250 (25 years!!). Although I'm sorry to hear that the yearning for perfection eats you up inside, I'm glad to know that I'm not alone. I often have this erroneous idea that because I'm an engineer I should know everything. If my clients knew how much hand-wringing and second-guessing I do, they'd probably want to have another engineer work on their plans lol!

Truly, I wouldn't sweat the technical stuff

Can you give some additional insight into this? I noticed at my old job and with other companies around here that they agree with this statement. But honestly my reaction when I read that is "Seriously?" Like a while back I was designing a 10' cantilever wall and I swear I read that mega-thread that you were heavily involved with about rebar going around a corner, development, etc. about 5x all the way through because in my mind, if I mess up this wall someone is going to die and I will lose everything. It probably goes to what you're saying about risk tolerance, but sweating the technical stuff is all I'm doing these days. If I could somehow not sweat it, as you say, then that would be an enormous weight off of my mind.

 

[KootK]

I used to read 2 books a month for fun, but since starting this company I haven't read a single book for fun since I'm always working on the business or stressing about this and that.

That I understand. I'm pretty good with my reading because that's how I put myself to sleep. For me, it's about bicycle mechanics. That's what slides when I can't put the work down. And, somehow, the work is just sooo much harder for me to put down as an independent. I have this thing where I'm not really able to switch gears to allow myself to work on anything other than the thing that I deem to be the most urgent. And when you're an entrepreneur, there's always something urgent. So I wind up never working on my bikes because I have a mountain of invoicing and insurance bullshit that I've been procrastinating on.

Rationally, I know that the bike mechanics should be a high priority item because that's where I'll get the R&R that will sharpen the saw and allow me to bang out out the invoicing and insurance stuff. It's just really, really hard for me to execute on that as I should.

This same issue has also had a detrimental effect on how proactive I've been about my healthcare. As an example, I recently found out that I need reading glasses. And I need them quite badly. I haven't been seeing an optometrist regularly because I've never needed glasses in the traditional sense. I have, however, been suffering unexplained fatigue for a while now. Turns out that was because all of my books and my computer screens are blurry AF. I see it clear as day in retrospect but, because I've not been proactive with my healthcare, it has taken me way to long to get it sorted out. I've also rebooked so many colonoscopies that my gastroenterologist may have, in fact, fired me as a patient. You don't want that kind of trouble in a country with socialized healthcare.

 

[phamENG]

JungleJoe - likewise. The partner idea is always top of mind for me, but I also have the issue of finding somebody. If you ever move to the east coast, look me up and maybe we can work something out.

 

[KootK]

I used to think that having a partner was a good idea but I no longer do for the most part. If you examine your reasons for wanting a partner honestly, most of the time I expect that those reasons will boil down to this:

1) You think that having a partner will be a hedge against some form of risk.

2) Most often the hedge will be ineffective.

3) Having a partner comes with its own risks with respect to your reputation, the amount of control that you exert over your enterprise, and the potential of a general falling out.

Presently, I know of two valid reasons to have a partner:

4) When it works well, it alleviates professional loneliness. Of course, when it goes bad, it's a nightmare.

5) Having more principals means having a higher volume of work. This makes it much easier to acquire big dollar assets such as software and your first few employees.

In my opinion, most of the things that I would want a partner for can be had more simply via having a friend. And, thankfully, I've got a few of those.

 

[phamENG]

My thoughts fall in line with KootK's 5. 4 only to the extent that as long as you're smart and coordinate vacations, you might actually be able to take a vacation. And also improved quality control, if you do it right. A second set of eyes is better than one.

The only real hedge that I've considered it to be good for is hiring employees. If a new employee is going to cost $100k/year, I'd much rather only be on the hook for $50k or $33k if things don't pan out than the full $100k. If you're both focusing on different sectors - say you do residential and your partner is commercial - you may have some benefit from variations in the market. When residential is down you can do some work on projects your partner brings in, and vice versa. This is likely to be very limited, and in some markets may not be recognized at all.

 

[KootK]

With regard to partners, I definitely feel that there is a right and a wrong way to do that:

Right way: establish everybody's salaries, how profit will be calculated and shared, and be real partners in both the financial and legal senses.

Wrong way: share a few things but, essentially, remain separate in the "everybody eats what they kill" sense.

It's complicated but, if you partner the wrong way, your incentive structures may wind being out all out of whack and you'll end up with all of the bad stuff associated with having a partner and little of the of the good stuff. Things such as who gets to utilize the most profitable employees for their work?

Partnering the right way requires a lot of trust which is why:

1) Folks are often tempted to partner the wrong way and;

2) Partnering tends to work best when a firm is first founded, rather than ad hoc, when questions of equity become much trickier.

 

[human909]

My wife suggested this very thing to me a couple of days ago. Guess I really should look into it. I appreciate the advice coming from someone older than me. The older I get the more I realize how important it is to talk to people with more life experience than we have.

She might be onto something or she might be over analysing (like myself) and ascribing the perfectly normal and reasonably concerns that structural engineers with something more. Either unless your challenges are severe often 'seeing a professional' isn't particularly helpful. The biggest changes come from within and recognising your flaws and working on them in a productive fashion. (The reason why I brought mental health is because most people (especially males) with genuine challenges do not seek help. Breaking down the barriers to that is important I believe.)

Have a google of high achiever syndrome if you want. Though I'm not sure it fits. The fact that you are considering the option to step back to salary almost rules that one out. Dunning Kruger effect is more likely and much more preferable!

Plenty of good feedback from others show that your experience is far from abnormal.

Oh and stick around on this forum. There is plenty of good discussion here. While I am salaried, I lack collages to have good structural discussions. Plenty I read here challenges what I know and continues to reveal gaps(chasms) in my knowledge. I need the discussion to continue to keep me engaged on what I don't know. 95% of the work I do is on stuff I DO know well.

 

[KootK]

Then I'd come here and find that many engineers are asking the same questions I've always had, and a lot of the answers that my boss gave me were roundly criticized.

Do keep in mind that we're kind of a self selected cadre of over thinkers here. The very fact that anyone you hear from here would bother to take the time to respond pretty much skews them:

1) Probably into the upper 1/3 on average in terms of being technically proficient and/or anxious;

2) Probably into the lower 1/3 on average in terms of entrepreneurial bent.

It's actually a very common thing here for folks to substantially disappear once they reach the point in their careers where they have become primarily business people. You are definitely getting some good business advice here but, at the same time, I'd recommend also getting some business advice elsewhere as well to augment this stuff.

 

[SandwichEngine]

I don't have any comments on the part where you can't turn it off but I will comment on the part about not having anyone to discuss things with. Long story short, I think you get over that.

I was in a similar position around 5 years ago. Went from being a senior engineer with 11 years of experience to being the director of engineering for a new company. At the old company, all engineers were in house and we'd always say things like "don't make decisions in a vacuum." Even as a senior person who mostly checked others, I'd run anything out of the box by some of the others I respected just as a sanity check. Once I took the new position, the only US based engineers we had were a very old engineer who I respected but worked from home and mostly couldn't be reached and a guy named Plan Stamperson who didn't know anything except how to run programs or spreadsheets written by someone else.

Anytime I'd run into a new challenging bit of engineering I'd attempt to run it by my boss just because he's really smart and has been in the industry for a long time but he's a mechanical engineer by training who's real skill is leadership. He's a very smart person but he's not a structural engineer or a P.E. It took a while for me to stop trying to run stuff by him and just trust my own knowledge and research but after a while, I was able to get past it.

Fast forward a few years and I've replaced the two US based engineers we had with two heavy hitter pro P.E.s who I greatly respect. Now, if I have any questions, I'll bounce the idea off them but it took me a while to get used to collaborating again because I'd gotten used to just being the ultimate authority and telling people what to do.

 

[TLHS]

I'm going to jump back on the other stuff later, but there's nothing wrong with talking to someone about strategies to deal with things like anxiety and stress. It's not a failure, and it's not something that's just for people with fully debilitating issues that can't make it through a day. Stress and worry can eat people up in this profession. You also see people become numb to the worry about consequences, and that's just as bad. If you can identify an issue that's affecting your life, go and talk to someone about it and see if it helps.

It was an interesting conversation about anxiety, actually, when I was having it. Because in our profession, separating out unproductive anxiety and "I really really need to look into this because someone could actually die if I'm wrong" is tricky. I found that 'what are the consequences of what I'm doing' was an important personal check in those situations, and a conversation with someone else to validate can also be useful. If you are not scared sometimes, I don't think you should be in the profession, but if you're worried all the time you won't enjoy any of it.

Remember, though, that psychologists, counsellors and coaches can all be good and bad practitioners and can specialize in lots of different things. Aim your perfectionism at finding one that looks like they might understand your experiences and has a modality that works with your mindset. I only have my own experiences, but if you want some pointers on what you might be looking for, feel free to let me know and I'll drop my email address into my profile for a day or two so you can grab it. Not sure I can be a hundred percent helpful, but I know a couple of things. If it's just a few strategies you need to help identify and deal with specifics, you're going to go for a small handful of sessions unless you want to keep jumping back for accountability reasons, so it's not the "going to therapy forever" stereotype that seems to be out there.

 

[KootK]

I hate to say it but I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a bit of a mental health crises endemic within our profession.

My recent, legal difficulties have taught me one, sobering thing: there is in fact a limit to how much stress I can functionally endure. Beyond that limit, I stop performing better and, in fact, start performing worse.

I would very much like to be able to sleep soundly on a battlefield, like Napolean, with a thousand Prussian cannons pointed at me in anticipation of tomorrow's carnage. I'm not Napoleon though. Rather, I probably would have been one of the supply train guys staring wide eyed at at the top of my tent all night and soiling my pantaloons repeatedly.

That's okay though I think. Napolean was quite exceptional. And I am not. That's kind of built into the very meaning of "exceptional" really.

 

[JungleJoe]

Interesting thoughts on partners. As I left my previous employer I thought that entering into this venture without a partner was probably a bad move. You all have brought up some great points that I hadn't fully considered about what it would mean to have a partner.

I will comment on the part about not having anyone to discuss things with. Long story short, I think you get over that.

Nice to hear this. Although I haven't been in business super long I have noticed that my confidence grows a tiny bit each project that goes out the door. It's not as quick as I'd like, but it is noticeable.

if you want some pointers on what you might be looking for, feel free to let me know and I'll drop my email address into my profile for a day or two so you can grab it

That would be very much appreciated. From everyone's thoughts here I think that I could benefit greatly from talking to a professional about some of my anxieties.

I'm not Napoleon though. Rather, I probably would have been one of the supply train guys staring wide eyed at at the top of my tent all night and soiling my pantaloons repeatedly

LOL, hey at least you wouldn't be the guy tucking tail and running for the hills. The "legal difficulties" you mention sounds ominous.