civil site design - project management advice?

[entp]

Hi,

I have my PE, and experience that varies from civil site design to land development to water distribution. I'm considering a new position in civil site design. I have project management experience, but not in civil site design.

Any advice on where to read up or get information about civil site design project management, in order to make sure I don't miss anything if I take this job? I'd be the only civil engineer in a tiny company, so I won't have any coworkers to ask.

I'm going to start by renewing my ASCE membership and attending some meetings to see if I can talk to other civil site design project managers.

Any other ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[kedpe]

I had the same opportunity about 10 years ago and had about 5 years experience, to start a civil arm of an environmental firm. No other engineers, except my competitors. In hindsight, I would have taken a position with a firm that had more experienced engineers to mentor me. Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[LHA]

The "I'd be the only civil engineer" would scare me. Site development is an intricate mixture of often contradictory goals by clients, contractors, subconsultants and regulators of numerous levels. It's part engineering, part management, part politicing, part babysitting. It is VERY easy to say the wrong thing at the wrong time. I'd want at least 10 years working with site/civils more experienced than I before I would I'd be the only civil engineer in a firm.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[runoff]

ENTP;

No Fear. I know it sounds like a bad idea but Site Civil is not that difficult. It is a lot of coordination with utilities, municipalities and others. You might find yourself having to do things once, twice or even five times over again but you learn. I had that same experience about 15 years ago. I even found that engineers in other companies were kind enough to sit down and discusss methods to use when evaluating site work. Yes, I told them what I was doing and they pretty much helped me. I even made a few friends a long the way. Just ask and don't be afraid to say "I DO NOT KNOW". It is better to admit that and have help than to no and wing it. I even found that when doing the urban hydrology stuff that the local authorities were more than willing to help. Now 15 years later, I can do site work pretty well.

 

[entp]

Thanks, everyone. So what's the protocol around here, would it be too much glitter to give each responder a star to say thanks?

I have a response for each of you below:

kedpe, that must have been a lot of pressure to start a civil group with only 5 years experience! Was your experience all at one company, doing something similar to what the environmental company wanted from you? Was the pressure to have to figure everything out yourself the reason you'd do it differently in hindsight? I have about 8 yrs experience, plus engineering work I did during university. So how long did you stay there? If it weren't for the pressure, would you have liked it, or did you find there wasn't enough variety in the work?

So Iha, would you say that the political aspect of project management is more of a pain for civil site development (CSD) than for other branches, such as land development or water distribution? Do you think that if I can find some mentors in CSD, that would make a big difference? My first job was in CSD, where I worked for 2 1/2 yrs at a large structural firm.

Runoff, when you say you had the same experience, do you mean that you were the only civil at a company, and did you do CSD also? When you say that CSD isn't that difficult, I agree that the engineering technical aspect isn't bad. The part I'm wondering about is the project management, knowing exactly what my responsibilities will be for each project, and who to call or subcontract and when it is necessary. I figure I'll at least need to know a surveyor to call when I need to dip a manhole to check the invert. I agree that often agencies will be very helpful, too.

Further advice and discussion would be welcome.

 

[francesca]

It is beginning to strike me that the job could be miserable without proper support from your company and regulatory agencies, but could be a pleasurable challenge with a very supportive company and a good relationship with the agencies. For instance, if your company supports you when you say "I'm a little out of my depth on this one and I think we need to bring so-and-so on board as a consultant for 10 hours to make sure we don't screw this up," then you don't need a response like "Well what did we hire you for?" but rather a "Sure, whatever you need."

You're going to have trouble staying in budget if you have to call a surveying company out every time you need to check a manhole invert, though. Sure you need a surveying company to do a lot of surveying work, but they should establish good control points and benchmarks and you and someone working with you should be competent enough with a level and/or total station to go out there and pick up levels and spot coordinates. I'm not saying you need to be accurate enough to lay out a road, but locating utilities should be within your scope.

 

[entp]

Francesca, I think you're absolutely right. Throughout my career, most of my colleagues have been very supportive, and it really makes all the difference. I especially appreciate that fact now that I have one coworker who is the opposite.

My potential colleagues at this company I'm considering seem very supportive. Maybe I'll tell them that I'd first like to test the waters by contacting some of the agencies they work with, and by seeing if I can find some other CSD project managers to consult with.

 

[LHA]

entp:
No, I would you say that the political aspect of project management is more of a pain for LAND DEVELOPMENT than for civil site development (CSD). The civil engineering is pretty straight forward, once you get the hang of grading. Getting a Land Development Plan (LDP) approved, and all the paperwork done in the right order, is the hard part.

I was mentored in site/civil engineering for not very many months before I was pretty much doing that aspect unassisted, or at least with very little. I was mentored in the LDP process for about 4 years, before I really started leading significant projects.

Francesca:
In my experinece, if entp is talking about a typical Land Dev company, they are not likely to bring in subs. They are looking for someone to push this stuff through Planning, DOT, Env permitting, etc.


Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[sam74]

What do your guys consider the differences between Civil/Site and Land Development. Consulting vs working directly for the contractor?

 

[LHA]

To me, Site/Civil Design is the engineering: utilities, grading, traffic, geotech, E&S, storm, etc. That takes a basic eng education, a little mentoring to hone eng skills. Entp may - or may not - be quite prepared to do this, that is to perform "civil site design".

Land Dev. is conformance to the laws: SLDO, Zoning, DOT, env permits, public notification, sewage planning, etc. THAT takes balancing the numerous, darned near impenetrable maze of task without pissing off the neighbors. This is where entp will likely struggle. If the interviewer is looking for "civil site design project management", entp is most likely to spend between 0-10% of work hours designing, and the rest coordinating the Land Development Plans.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[Rookie2]

I am in somewhat of a similar position; I have been doing site design for a few years now and have moved into project management over the last year. I agree with some others here that the engineering isn't that much of an issue, it's the project management that I would be concerned about.

Dealing with contractors / developers can be a difficult task. In my experience contractors are constantly looking for extras and developers are constantly looking for someone to blame it on (i.e. pay for it). It requires someone with experience in land development engineering / project management to know how to handle these issues; Otherwise this could be an expensive proposition for you and your company.

This may not be an issue for you as you mentioned you had project management experience, but I am grateful to be working under a more experienced engineer that can give me advice on this type of thing.

 

[runoff]

ENTP;

Answer to your question above, yes. I was the only civil or even engineer in the firm. It was a small architectural firm that needed a civil engineer. I jumped and did not look back. I did have some bumps in the road but was able to adapt. I primarily did water/wastewater before and some geotechnical but I was able to transition into the Site Civil work quite easily. I would say the hardest part was understanding which hydrology software to use or even having to go back to my 'Chow' textbook to do the calculations. The work is challenging and the site civil designs are probably the most diverse, which allows you to interface with everyone from a mechanical engineer to a structural or electrical.

Just weigh your options and decide. If your first impression is no, that is probably the best bet. I always follow my impressions or gut feelings. They very rarely let me down.

 

[entp]

Thanks everyone. Sorry it took awhile to respond, I've been working a lot of hours at my current company.

Iha, it sounds like your definition of Land Development is part of the project management process that goes with Site Development, is that correct?

I always thought Land Development meant the engineering and project management of subdivision design, usually in undeveloped suburban areas, and that Site Development was the engineering and project management of designing single sites, usually in urban areas that are already developed.

For example, when I worked in Site Development, it was for the civil group in a large structural engineering firm that designed high rise buildings. When I worked in Land Development, it was for companies who designed subdivisions.

In any case, I think you guys are right that with civil site development, the project management requires more effort that the actual design. (I have a lot of experience with grading design, so I'm not worried about that, either.)

I think that with my experience, I could handle the design and project management, but I've renewed my ASCE membership and hope to find other site civils PMs to talk to, so that I'll feel more confident that I'm anticipating everything in advance.

Has anyone ever written a business plan? They want me to write one, and I have a book about what it should include, but I really don't know what my marketing strategy will be, or how the housing market will affect the demand for rental apartment buildings. They want me to bring in business, which is new to me. If anyone has experience with that, any information or advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[ahans]

Hello guys,
I am a structural engineer but don't practice it anymore. I am looking for some one who can assist me with civil site design in state of Maryland. It is small project that I have undertaken. Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated. If you have full time job and considering doing some work on the side, that is fine with me.
Thanks.

 

[BelspringKen]

Be sure you get the local regs and any relevant details that you need ASAP. BE SURE to check with the local and state reviewers that you have the correct, up to date versions of the regs and details. It would be good to sit down with the local reviewers with a concept plan to let them get an idea of what your new development involves. Most localities are happy to sit down with you and meet - it makes their job easier , and it makes your job easier as well.

 

[Scott367]

The job you described is exactly what I am doing now. You guys are correct, only about half of my job is engineering. Lots of time spent making different government aggency's happy, bidding work, solving problems on jobs underway. What kind of money should I expect for that kind of thing. I do between 10 and 15 jobs a year ranging in size from 20,000 s.f. to 200,000 s.f.

 

[LHA]

Running LDP projects, 0.5 to 5 acres. I'm assuming you are licensed, in NE USA, with 5-10 years experience. I'd say you should settle for no less than USD 55k, at a small/mid-sized firm. But might get up to 70k, with an ENR 500 firm.

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[Scott367]

Wow, that is surprising. I am licensed in Ohio. I am 40 and been in the industry since college. I am the only civil on staff so the entireity of site development is on my shoulders. I am at 86K and got a 10% bonus the last two years. I really feel this is light for my job description.

 

[LHA]

Seems about right for 20 yrs experience, and in charge of site development. That is a generous bonus, though. I'd stick where you are. Who do you work for, are they hiring in PA?

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[oldestguy]

Here is a thought to those with some 15 to 25 yearrs of experience, making reasonably good money.

Are you a go-getter? If so, and if you are willing to put in long hours at lower money for a while? Maybe even very low money?

Well, think about opening your own office, maybe even competing with the current company. It takes some effort and may take a few years to get back to that pay level, but in the long run, your self employement retirement money will grow faster and your annual "take home" will be far above what you would get staying at the same place, even if you become a partner. You might even have so much fun at it that you don't retire.

Working at home is a good way to keep overhead down and you deduct home office and other expenses from taxes. This alone make it possible to get work others are too pricy to obtain.

It helps a lot if you have plenty of contacts that liked your work. Also, you may team up with a few other self-employed engineers in lines that complement you, all with low overhead.

Of course it takes a lot of work(meaning time).

Drawbacks are several. You may have to hire some help and managing personnel is no fun.