Climate Questions -- Is Eng-Tips Fit for Purpose? 22

[Guest102023]

Question: as stated in the header, and as a service to the Eng-tips community.

Let's examine the content, direction, moderation and decorum (or lack thereof) of recent climate related threads. I will kick this off but not participate. Knock yourselves out.
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All the worst characteristics of internet 'speech' and particularly 'social media' have appeared, and a general antagonistic tone has become the norm. Threads have all had the same pattern of devolving into conspiracy theories, personal attacks, petty politics, and general invective that should be beneath a professional engineer, and certainly do not meet the stated expectations of the Eng-Tips managers in the house rules. There has been no moderation, other than an occasional scream to 'stay on topic' (often when a member simply disagrees with a post). I'll state up front that I don't claim to be proud of every single thing I have posted. And I always forget that folks most in need of hearing sarcasm are those least likely to detect it.

Some of the posts IMO are informed by ignorance, naked economic self-interest, one-dimensional thinking, total lack of self-awareness, even conspiracy theories. The political and ideological skews correlate well with member nationality. Command of logical principles at a fundamental level is frequently lacking and whataboutery is rampant. The fallacies are too numerous to list here. The worst social media crime of all is that of accusing another of the thing one is clearly guilty of. Members who post factual, verifiable information have had all kinds of aspersions cast at them, including personal insults, up to and including comments about the member's mental health. Well being aquainted with such issues, and having become a keen student of HU factors in organizations, I am somewhat adept at identifying such issues in myself and others (and let's face it, we engineers are highly prone to one or two 'conditions'. If you need help identifying what those might be, I refer you to popular jokes and stereotypes). I have held myself back from offering sometimes needed diagnoses.

Some of the worst offenders (there are at least three) have profiles that say "I'm an Eng-Tips Forums Fellow and member of the Eng-Tips Forums Round Table, where management is advised on site operations and proposed programming enhancements." I have no words for that discovery, other than 'what the actual ****??!!' All of them are old enough to know better. (Even though the profiles are public I apologize for snooping; it feels creepy. Anyone else feel creepy about it?) Maybe I have the wrong impression, but I associate things like 'Fellow' and 'member of the Round Table' with mature, thoughtful behaviour.

Discuss, considering how you all could make this work.

...see you all après le déluge




"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

 

[Tomfh]

So you want a means to gag dissent. Why am I not surprised...

 

[IRstuff]

Maybe I have the wrong impression, but I associate things like 'Fellow' and 'member of the Round Table' with mature, thoughtful behaviour.

The Round Table, not unlike King Arthur's, is composed of individuals who are not all of one mind, which is the way King Arthur's and ET's must work. Otherwise, why even have an Round Table, you'd only need one person to be the one true king. But this one true king, in the case of Arthur, knew he as neither omnipotent nor omniscient, hence a Round Table.

That said, climate change is obviously a contentious issue, but the fundamental issue is that not everyone even accepts that there is a problem, much less whether humanity can, or should, do anything about it, regardless of whether humanity is even the cause. There are people here who are passionately in one of several different camps, and it's that very passion that makes them good at, and correct, at their other engineering endeavors. irrespective of this one issue.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[TugboatEng]

Thanks IR, I know we don't see everything on the same level but I appreciate your comment here.

 

[sbisteel]

The worst social media crime of all is that of accusing another of the thing one is clearly guilty of.

I needed a good chuckle to start the week.

 

[LionelHutz]

OH no the sky is falling, you're now bitching about getting treated like you treat others.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

Hard dissent and skepticism must always be considered when there is massive potential for monetary and resource exploitation. Unquestionable funding and policy "pipelines," gatekept by insulated self-enriching groups of do-gooder "experts," are incredibly dangerous, especially when they repeatedly pay no price for being wrong or exploitative.

Disagreement comes on a spectrum, it is not dichotomous...

 

[rb1957]

"but if I take a contrary position, then I must be arguing with you"
"no it isn't"

ah, the argument sketch !

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[rb1957]

the problem is, AISI, that some people are absolutely convinced that problem exists, and is existential, and requires immediate enormous efforts to undo.

But some people are not so sure, and these are an anathema to the first group (for calling into question a bedrock belief).

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[rb1957]

Actually, and I hope brimstoner is reading this, the concepts expressed, describing ET Fellow, are truly scary.

"I have no words for that discovery, other than 'what the actual ****??!!'"

"All of them are old enough to know better."

"Maybe I have the wrong impression, but I associate things like 'Fellow' and 'member of the Round Table' with mature, thoughtful behaviour."

Should everyone agree with you ?

Should those who don't be censured ?

Are we returning to the olde days, when someone only had to say "blasphemer" or "she's a witch" to land someone in BIG problem ?


"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

brimstoner -

First let me thank you for creating this thread. I think this is a better way to ponder these types of questions than mud-slinging in a thread on a different topic. I'm not blaming you for all the mud-slinging, just recognizing that sort of this is the topic of this discussion.

Next let me point out that you are the newbie here, right? It seems to me it would behoove you to sit back a little bit and observe a bit so that you better understand the standard of behavior on Eng-Tips in general and on the Climate Change Engineering Solutions forum in particular.

On most Eng-tips forums, we try to keep our discussions more technical and on topic. Folks who have no idea what they're talking about stick out like a sore thumb in the technical forums. Most members are reasonably forgiving and will chastise them fairly gently. Some members are not as forgiving and not as gentle.

Now, the Climate Change forum is a slightly different beast. It's a politically contentious subject. So, you have to be willing and eager to engage in people who think differently than you do. And, who have very different opinions than you do. It's almost like when you interact with devout people of different religious beliefs. You want them to be able to express themselves. However, you know you're going to disagree with a lot of what they have to say.

There is sarcasm and contention on the climate change forum. But, it rarely devolves into the kind of "name calling" that has happened recently. Usually, the problem becomes when someone puts words into someone's else's mouth and misrepresents their opinion or stance.

I haven't gone through all the posts where there has been contention with you. So, I'm basing my opinion on a limited sample set. However, it seems to me that the problem usually starts with your posting something cryptic that is probably meant as sarcasm or something. Then someone will object (maybe a little too harshly). And, then you are off to the races..... Someone insulted you, so it's time to go to the mattresses like the Corleone family.

Personally, I think you would have a much easier time if you eased up on the sarcasm and explained your posts better. Also, don't take everything as a personal insult on your character. Instead, try responding back politely.... "what about my post did you find so objectionable, I was merely trying to say... Is that offensive to you in some way, it was unintentional."

As Michael Jackson once sang, start with the man in the mirror and ask him to change his ways.

 

[moltenmetal]

I've just stopped engaging here on this topic as it has been over the years a source of endless frustration. There are too many people here who should know better and who simply will not change their position when presented with new data, who enjoy the argument too much and simply grind you down. Arguing with such people is like wrestling with a pig- merely frustrating until you realize that the pig likes it- then it becomes clear how pointless and infuriating it really is.

I similarly tried to get the management to stop the use of Eng-Tips for the spreading of disinformation on this and other topics, but the new management seem to have no interest in doing so.

Anyone who wants to engage with me on this topic is encouraged to do so via comments to my LinkedIn article on the subject.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/global-warming-risk-arises-from-three-facts-paul-martin/

The same with solutions to the AGW threat- I have lots of articles there, which I edit as things change and as I learn more.

(

http://www.spitfireresearch.com)

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I similarly tried to get the management to stop the use of Eng-Tips for the spreading of disinformation on this and other topics, but the new management seem to have no interest in doing so.

Ah yes, the new way to suppress free speech.... Call it either "hate speech" or "disinformation"!

FWIW, I don't think Eng-Tips is the kind of large "social media" company that can effectively manage the speech of its members. Rather it leaves the members to self moderate and report on each other when they fall out of line.

We do get occasional crazy conspiracy theorists. Guys who were ranting and raving about 9/11 being an inside job and claiming to have proof that the building was a controlled demolition and such. Clearly not engineers and they were reported by numerous of us that are actual engineers with expertise in structures and they eventually got kicked off the platform. Or, at least kicked off the forums where they had no actual expertise.

Now, the Climate Change Engineering solutions forum is a different type of forum. Most of us do not have true expertise in the subject. Some of you do. My interest in it is one based more on "energy economics" which is a side passion of mine based on family history. Lots of other people have similar reasons for being there.

Therefore, it's not purely a technical forum. As such, it may frustrate those who wish it to be more technical. The rest of us cannot be held responsible for your frustration. If you want it to be more technical, then post more technical content. We're not dumb people. We've all taken chemistry and physics and such. So, if you're having trouble convincing us of the righteousness of your position, maybe you need to evaluate how you are communicating rather than attack others.

For what it's worth, there probably are people who are guilty of spreading true 'disinformation' on this forum. That's true for most forums on Eng-Tips, though likely more so for this one. However, I think the biggest disagreements we get into on this forum is about WHAT we should do to solve the problem, not about WHETHER or not there actually is a problem with AGW.

We've got a limited amount of resources, we want to make sure we spend those resources EFFICIENTLY to solve the problem. We've got a limited amount of "rare earth metals" and we don't live in a fantasy world where a magic solution to the problem is going to appear.

 

[TugboatEng]

moltenmetal, you have a financial connection to AGW. You must understand why some may find it problematic that you are trying to control the information that people share about AGW.

 

[rb1957]

geeze TBE, that's a stretch. I assume you mean that mm is getting paid through his LinkedIn posting ?

Does that mean I have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo because I work in aerospace ?

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

geeze TBE, that's a stretch. I assume you mean that mm is getting paid through his LinkedIn posting ?

I think he meant that his career expertise is in developing "carbon capture" technology. I could be wrong. But, that was my impression (about what Tug meant and about what MoltenMetal does for a living).

 

[TugboatEng]

MM's linked in indicates that he has a career or side project that earns money from people attempting to take action against climate change. That would create a conflict of interest for anyone attempting to control information about climate change.

 

[rb1957]

Still I think that's a pretty tough stance, TBE.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[IRstuff]

More deflection, given that the global oil and gas industry turns over $2.1T every year, so follow the money to answer why there are so many people denying, or pooh-poohing, climate change. The deniers will continue to claim that there's money-incentive in green energy; to be sure, there is, but oil and gas is 3x as big, so who has the most incentive?

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/an...economy-comprised-oil-gas-drilling-sector.asp

https://www.businesswire.com/news/h...ble energy market,of 6,674,946.2 GWh in 2020.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[JoshPlumSE]

More deflection, given that the global oil and gas industry turns over $2.1T every year, so follow the money to answer why there are so many people denying, or pooh-poohing, climate change.

Maybe it was deflection on TBE's part. Though I don't know that TBE has any bias towards oil and gas. I know the 1st 6 years of my career I worked primarily on structural engineering for heavy industrial projects including, Petrochemical plants, Power Plants (nuclear and gas based), Fuel Cells and manufacturing facilities.

That has given me some insight into these industries. But, it has essentially zero effect on my beliefs related to global warming.