competition with previous employer?? Ethical?? 3

[l3city]

Hi, this is somehow related with thread765-155837, but check this real life situation, and please send me your comments:
Enginner A quit the job after 3 years, got a job with another engineer, and started giving business cards to other architects & engineers that make or made bussines with his previous employer.
There was nothing in the policies or a contract that said anything about competition.
However, one day Engineer A met with his previous employer and this ended-up bad. The previous employer alleged he was not happy with that, he called him unloyal & unethical. Engineer A alleged he needed to work & eat, that this country (USA) is free to legaly compete and more when no contract or policies where violated.

Engineer A started out with his previous employer. Whatever knowledge and skills he had at that time, he got it from his previous employer, in fact, he was hired by him when nobody wanted to hire him because he was recently graduated and from another country.

Sooner or later I'll get my license and quit my job, and I ask myself: will I contact Architects & other engineers that are currently working with my boss? Will I compete with my current employer?

Ok, fellas, what would you do? or how about if you wanted to start, say, your own company?? Is this situation showing not being thankful to the one who gave you a hand when you needed it?

Ethical or unethical..that's the question?

 

[UcfSE]

If you didn't agree not to compete, in writing, I say there's is no problem. It sounds like the previous employer is trying to run his mouth because Engineer A is getting business. If the tables were turned, would he not compete against Engineer A? Besides, how can you not compete without moving out of the previous employer's range from which he gets work?

 

[EddyC]

And how do you think "previous employer" got started? Maybe he competed against his former employer.

 

[TDAA]

"Is this situation showing not being thankful to the one who gave you a hand when you needed it?" -- You also helped them out, assuming they didn't give you a job when they didn't need to hire someone.

"Engineer A started out with his previous employer. Whatever knowledge and skills he had at that time, he got it from his previous employer, in fact, he was hired by him when nobody wanted to hire him because he was recently graduated and from another country." -- So what? Didn’t they make money off of Engineer A. If they did not, then they should have been terminated (assuming "A" was in a non-overhead position).

I see no problem with the situation, providing he waited to leave before contacting "previous" employers clients on behalf of his new employer. On a professional level, you need to make contacts and get business. On a personal level, this may hurt feelings, depending on the previous working relationship.

 

[IRstuff]

The previous employer is a selfish ass.

TTFN

 

[BJC]

Previous employer needs to review the Thirteenth Amendment to the constitution. As long as engineer is not using propriority or secret information/process etc. there is no problem. Previous employer could have retained the services of engineer A easily.

 

[l3city]

thanks fellas, this is true, this happen to my friend, in fact, once he was ready to get his PE signatures (i.e. recommendations) he did not even bother in coming with his previous boss...he got the signatures from other Architects & engineers in the US and Mexico, passed the PE, got really nice job.

Your answers give me an idea onto what to expect about once I get my PE. Signing any non-competition agreement will stop me financially & professionally.

 

[Ashereng]

If the contract does not bar competition, then you are good to go. If it does, ethics is not the problem, contract law is. You can get sued.

You will most likely work for more than one employer. There is a very good chance you will work with/compete against old employers, colleagues, vendors, clients, everyone. That is the nature of the market right now.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[RLM2000]

How do you think most engineering outfits got started? I can only thing of 2 locally that just opened up their doors and said: "Here I am, come purchase my services". About 90% of the upstarts around here were started by dragging clients directly from their old employer.

That is why things like bonuses, partnerships, and good salaries exist. If you are an influential member of a firm with a good list of faithful clients you are valuable and should expect to be paid for your value. This type of secession happens to many small-medium type firms (especially those that are poorly managed).

 

[MedicineEng]

I believe that depends a lot how the competition is done. If the ex-employee just grabbed all the contact list of his former boss and start calling his contacts offering his services like:"I am now working in another company, come to me and I will give you 10% discount on the fees of company X", or if the ex-employee goes to the door of this former company distribute business cards, then even if eventually legal, I don't feel that it is ethical.
If by the other hand in events or in the normal business life he distributes some cards from clients of his boss, I don't see any issue.

 

[greenone]

" If the ex-employee just grabbed all the contact list.."

TMedicineEng-There has been a (long) thread about the whole contact list issue, so I won't rerun it. I come down on the side of my contacts are in my Palm, and that is my property.

I have the right to contact people and let them know where I am working. And I see nothing wrong with asking them if they want to move their project so it stays with me, and they get continuity.

When we want to hire someone, one of the key points in the discussion is how many clients will they bring with them. In CA, non-compete clauses are useless for many engineers.

 

[IRstuff]

While non-compete may be a moot issue in California, alleging theft of intellectual property got a high-profile former M$ employee bumped from his initial position at Google.

TTFN

 

[Jabberwocky]

It is ethical to compete with a former employer.

As has been said, part of your career development is who you know, and unless you're sequestered away in a closet you're going to meet people who could potentially lead to new jobs in the future. (if you're on eng-tips you may meet them from the closet even)

How closely to compete is an ethical line that you will have to decide for yourself, barring non-compete clauses in contracts.

 

[DRC1]

The point is that if the clients were satified with the previous employer's services, they would not have switched. Also there has been no marriage, they can always switch back. I sugest the previous employer take a close look at his operation.

 

[HVACctrl]

I'm fairly confident that this is how most engineering firms begin. Perhaps the new firm, though, starts picking up the work that is "below" that of the former employer. Eventually, the new guy will grow to become a competitor. Its part of business.

There is no need to hand ourselves with an ethical rope when it comes to things like this. We have too much against us as it is.

Ed

http://www.engineerboards.com

 

[MedicineEng]

Let's see when Enginner A has a former employee making the same if he feels that it is still ethic...

 

[HVACctrl]

Its ethical. Its business.

Should there only be one engineering firm in the city because its unethical to compete with them if you ever worked for them?

http://www.engineerboards.com

 

[IRstuff]

I think most people are clear that the issue is not the competition, per se.

The main issue is the intellectual property and the dirty laundry that ex-employees can bring to bear against former employers.

That's the ethical issue, since you are effectively under a non-disclosure agreement to your former company.

TTFN

 

[plasgears]

I had recent experience with hiring on with a client of a company. Sales at company 1 refused to provide a cost reduced design to the client (all plastic). I offered to provide a cost reduced design to the client if he would hire me. I was hired and produced the parameters for the new design. The important point is that the client had gained over the years the ability to make plastic parts in house. The potential was to bring all this work in house.

A battle ensued; company 1 threatened suit, and I had to leave. I did not go back to company 1 even after strong appeals and offers of bonuses.

 

[HVACctrl]

plasgears,
If I'm understanding correctly, you worked for company 1 and they refused to reduce costs for a client, then you stepped up and did it on your own- in exchange for becoming an employee of the client?

If that's right, sounds like company 1 was trying hijack the client. That doesn't sound too professional or even ethical on company 1's part. Good for your. I'm glad you did the right thing. Hopefully it will not cause any difficulty for you in the future- being branded unloyal to your employer, etc...

I'm glad to hear of people doing the right thing.

Ed

http://www.engineerboards.com