Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans 8

[SlideRuleEra]

There are several ongoing threads about New Orleans in various forums, but I have not seen this issue discussed:

The flood water in the city of New Orleans is reported to be an unhealthy, disgusting mix of waste, chemicals, and who knows what else. The Corps of Engineers is quoted as saying that the city can be dewatered by the end of 2005, using the installed Wood screw pumping system. These pumps discharge into Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne; both lakes eventually drain into the Gulf of Mexico.

I wonder if existing environmental pollution laws are going to be waived or ignored? Have always heard that "Dilution is not the solution".

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[boo1]

See EPA initial news reporting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_water

If the waters toxic, would it still be pumped? Probably

 

[MikeHalloran]

Re: getting into a university, mine has offered up some freebies for hurricane victims:

http://www.clarkson.edu/

The climate is a little different from NO.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[unclesyd]

It can't be too bad as the EPA boat and crew were sampling the soup, not thick enough to be gumbo, with hand un-gloved and no masks and in an Al boat.

As for the stuff going into the Gulf I don't think it can compare to material that once came down the river or out of the lake a normal flow not too many years age. The Mississippi and Lake Pontchartrain at one time were sewers. There have been numerous barge leaks that killed tremendous numbers of fish and wildlife that weren't mad public.
Having fished the Gulf for many years (60 +) and seen houses, with chickens on the roof, 50 miles East of the river during floods I don't think this will have that much effect on things as whole. Like someone has posted nature puts a lot natural oil continuously in the water. Prior to drilling East of the river there were literally thousands of oil and gas seeps and light oil slicks along the 37 ridge that runs 100 miles to the east. The gray mud that covers Waverley Mississippi is the top layer of bottom mud, this is real gumbo, out of the lake and delta. This is where the shrimp live. I hope this doesn't expose earlier layers where all the previous years toxins are still located. This is how the bottom takes care of it's self overtime. If the shrimp and squid don’t show up real quick it means you have uncovered some crap.

The biggest effect will be on the local fishery, like the oyster, shrimp, and crab. They will have time to recover as not too many boats survived. Fish will thrive on the sewage aspect of the flow as the best place to catch trophy speckled trout in Pensacola Bay is at the sewage plant outfall terminus. My secret fishing hole, I used to win fishing rodeos with these trout.

It looks like a tremendous number of trees have died and NO or any city without the oaks is sad. The fish and wildlife will quickly rebound while the oaks are gone.

One thing not mentioned is if they can get the water out quickly some of the older homes are repairable as they material of construction are heart pine and HRT cyprus both will take the water OK. One other thing is that the termites (Formosan) have floated to higher elevations in the houses.

 

[rmw]

Francesca,

I'm sad that Lake Ponchatrain will be trashed yet again, (some my favorite food comes [came] from the lake) but since the pumps in NO are designed to pump (rainwater runoff with whatever it brings) into the lake, and time doesn't allow us to move them and reconstruct them on the river (which would take this stuff directly to the Gulf,) we are faced with the reality that it will have to be pumped into the lake (Ponchatrain) or remain in place until it evaporates (or someone beams it up into outer space).

As far as how toxic it really is, I have two comments. One is that I find UNCLESYD's observation about the unprotected hands during testing to be instructive, and secondly, I take with a real grain of salt anything the MSM says about environmental issues, given their agenda.

The designator beside your 'handle' says "environme" which I assumed was "environmental" truncated. So, I thought this was your field.

I'd like to see someone who is expert in this field make some concrete suggestions as to what might be done to minimize the damage, since we all have to realize that the town has to be pumped out, and some damage will occur.

My town is full of evacuees (the new PC term for refugees) and I have become personally acquainted with a few especially when the non english speakers (spanish) need translators. They want their town pumped out so that they can return to their lives and businesses.

The EPA doesn't allow my clients to chlorinate their effluents any more, so I don't know if chlorination (or bromination) of the pumpage would be in order or not. It would seem to me that chlorination would take care of a lot of the sewage issues, with respect to fecal bacteria, that is.

Later on in the year, or next spring, when the river is up, the spillways that are there uprover of NO to divert Miss. River water into the lake if the NO levees are threatened could be opened to "flush" out the lake, but from former experience, too much of that can damage the lake and the aquaculture in other ways.

I don't know the answers either, but that is what these fora are for, for experts to offer solutions to real problems. It is much better than hand wringing.

rmw

 

[cvg]

The current estimate by FEMA to pump the water is 6 months - per last nights news report.

One method to prevent some of the lighter hydrocarbons from being pumped would be to place a skimmer around the intake area for the pumps to prevent the floating oil and gas from being sucked into the intake.

Given enough time, the impounded water will naturally clarify somewhat, as the treatment process for sewage requires heat, oxygen, mixing and sufficient time in the lagoon for the natural microbes to digest the organic matter. This will eliminate a large portion of the BOD and the COD.

 

[unclesyd]

If the news this morning is correct the water might be the least of the problems. Caught two early news reports stating that 2 oil storage tanks belonging to Bass oil are both leaking. They didn't say where the tanks are located. One report had the combined capacity at 2 million gals and the other at 2 million gals each.
The EPA website has cut to black on the central region's reported oil spills.

One thing not noted by the news and authorities is that the sheen on water's surface is only a monomolecular layer and any volume of floating oil is being trapped on the surfaces of the houses, tress and cars. Nearly all the bugs in the water are not bad unless you have a cut, scratch or ingest it. Not good stuff anyway you look at it.

 

[rconner]

I guess sort of "looking for any silver lining", maybe at least some oil sheen might keep the mosquitos and whatever they might carry down a little.

 

[rmw]

It was said in a couple of reports that I heard that the Bass tanks were right at the mouth of the river.

rmw

 

[ctmtwilliams]

First I think it is grand that everyone is concerned about the potential hazards associated with pumping out NO into the lake. The media has made sure that everyone is whipped to a proper froth regarding how toxic the water is. The toxic water issue is also being used to expidite evacuations of the population in order to gain total control of the area.

Of course there are health concerns with the flood water, but (and I can’t believe that I nee d to explain this in these forums) there is a huge difference between long term environmental pollution and health concerns. It has already been said in this thread how the biological health concerns associated with the flood waters will naturally attenuate (fairly rapidly too I might add).

As far as chemical concerns, I think many of you might be forgetting just what a huge volume of water they are dealing with and that there is some what of a dilution factor that should obviously be applied. I seriously doubt that what is being pumped out of NO is as bad as what was pumped into the Mississippi for many years. I would suspect that typical samples of typical stormwater runoff from NO would have higher concentrations of the “TOXINS” everyone is concerned about than in what is what is being pumped today. Funny how the folks over on the wastewater treatment forum haven’t considered this to be some big problem, eh?

Oh yes last night the media also reported that FEMA has revised the time to pump out NO is almost half of what they originally projected.

Although I commonly agree with criticism of the EPA, I think it might be a bit premature on this issue.

 

[LHA]

ctmtwilliams' post seems to indicate that most posters have come out against pumping. My quick tally seems to indicate the opposite is true. Please correct me if anyone feels I have misinterpreted his or her position.

Poster Position (apparent)
regarding pumping untreated

francesca (Civil/Environme) Against
jimbo (Staff) Against
boo1 (Mechanical) In favor
cvg (Civil/Environme) In favor
ctmtwilliams (Geotechnical) In favor
jdonville (Geotechnical) In favor
lha (Civil/Environme) In favor
Prepakt1 (Coastal) In favor
rbcoulter (Chemical) In favor
rmw (Mechanical) In favor
semo (Civil/Environme) In favor
SlideRuleEra (Structural) In favor
unclesyd (Materials) In favor
IFRs (Petroleum) Neutral/No opinion offered
MikeHalloran (Mechanical) Neutral/No opinion offered
rconner (Civil/Environme) Neutral/No opinion offered
RGasEng (Mechanical) Neutral/No opinion offered

That's 2 against and 11 in favor. 4 others offered information, but I couldn't infer an opinion. Even assuming these 4 are all against, that is still 6 against and 11 in favor of...so far...


Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

 

[SlideRuleEra]

lha - You double counted me: once as "Poster" - Against
and later as SlideRuleEra - In favor. Actually I see the pumping as something that has to be done, but when I started this thread on September 3, could not find reports of any "official" consideration being given to the consequenses - that has changed since. IMHO the environmental outcome should be considered in what I expect to be a forthcoming National debate on what to do about rebuilding New Orleans (because of the multi-hundred billion dollar cost). If it is rebuild more or less "as-is", this whole thing will happen again - guaranteed.

Take it from a "survivor" of several major hurricanes including Hugo (Category 4) in 1989; we may even get another "dress rehearsal" for our next big one with Ophelia (Category 1) on Tuesday.

I like the idea of your summary - please count me as "In favor"

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[MikeHalloran]

If you don't pump NO into the lake, you perhaps save the lake from insult, but then what do you do with the city?

Pump out the city now.

Clean the lake, again, later.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[DRC1]

This is on more debate I am shocked that we are having. Don't get me wrong, I think the debate is excellent and the topic is also graet. What shocks me is that in a city on the Gulf cost below sea level, no one prior to this has considered a proceedure for pumping contaminated waste from a major flood? Where have all those billions of planning dollars gone? Althouugh if would be tough to completely treat the water, some treatment options such asprimary and secondary should be considered. Settling and skimming oil would be a good start, and something like Chlorine would go along way. I dont know how much flushing action the area gets, but if we don't worry about how we pump out this mess, we do we worry about all the little small spills and releases that we spend great sums on remeadiating?
Finally, the pumping of New Orleans may need to be done slowly anyway. For if the levees are saturated and the city is pumped out too quickly, the levee can fail strucutally. I hope someone has adressed that.

 

[LHA]

I only counted SlideRule once, In Favor, no change there...MikeH moves to In Favor...DRC1 enters the fray, with Neutral/No opinion offered.

The tally (I actually DON'T have too much time on my hands, but you would never know it):

Poster Position (apparent)
regarding pumping untreated

francesca (Civil/Environme) Against
jimbo (Staff) Against

boo1 (Mechanical) In favor
cvg (Civil/Environme) In favor
ctmtwilliams (Geotechnical) In favor
jdonville (Geotechnical) In favor
lha (Civil/Environme) In favor
MikeHalloran (Mechanical) In favor
Prepakt1 (Coastal) In favor
rbcoulter (Chemical) In favor
rmw (Mechanical) In favor
semo (Civil/Environme) In favor
SlideRuleEra (Structural) In favor
unclesyd (Materials) In favor

DRC1 (Civil/Environme) Neutral/No opinion offered
IFRs (Petroleum) Neutral/No opinion offered
rconner (Civil/Environme) Neutral/No opinion offered
RGasEng (Mechanical) Neutral/No opinion offered

That's 2 against and 12 in favor. 4 others offered information, but I couldn't infer an opinion. Even assuming these 4 are all against, that is still 6 against and 12 in favor of...so far...


Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

 

[vzeos]

I’m in favor of pumping. While I sympathize with those who would like to maintain a pristine environment, I think there is a need to recover and identify the dead as soon as possible.

 

[yogibear1]

DRC1 asked m.o.l.: "... where did all the Federal (flood control) money go?" I have heard (unsubstantiated) that much of it went to fund marinas and the gambling ships. If that is true, that makes it doubly sad and criminal.

 

[oxilume]

To all posters,

I live in Louisiana. Last Thursday I went to New Orleans with both of my brothers to salvage what we could from my younger brother's house (4 blocks from 17th street canal).

It was quite amazing to watch the helo's carry large sandbags. They were still throwing everything at this problem to simply see what sticks!

The streets in Kenner and Metarie were clear. In fact I could not find the first puddle of water in Metarie. We were not able to venture to East New Orleans to pickup my brother's in-laws belongings. There house is still 10 feet underwater.

Now I am going to lay to rest alot of the stuff I have read in this forum.

I have invented, built and tested the World's most powerful UV light & ozone system. One system can handle over 50,000 gpm of Opaque water! The unit has shown 99.9% inactivation of all pathogens in opaque water with an oil & grease concentration of greater than 1%.

I am in touch with the NSF daily with regards to mobilizing the two systems I have. However, the NSF has thrown its hand's in the air, because of a lack of cooperation amongst the different agencies.

Likewise, both the Louisiana DEQ & EPA region 6 are aware of my technologies. I have used all of my resources to contact both agencies but to no avail.

Now, this is what I personally saw occuring on Airline highway. When we were traveling east on Airline we had to detour prior to Causeway blvd. Some type of construction going on in the middle of the east bound lane.

When we departed we exited unto airline directly from causeway. The construction in the middle of the east bound land is a large pipeline. It appears the pipeline will run from the 17th street canal all the way to the Spillway. Thus, New Orleans may be drained into the spillway and LET nature take its course - the basin will polish the water! That is simply my guess.

I have some great pictures if anyone is interested. to contact me goto my website:

http://www.oxilume.com

Todd



Todd

http://www.oxilume.com

 

[rconner]

I don't know the answer to this question, but I suspect I know this -- most of us would probably pump out our basements just as quickly as possible if they became flooded. In this case however the water quantities/pumping rates are apaprently huge (I think I heard that just one pump can pump 500,000 gpm, and there are lots of pumps now online/more coming!!), I suspect all this challenging the practicality if not cost effectiveness of any extensive treatment option.

 

[oxilume]

Rconner,

I don't believe your flooded basement would have the coliform and e-coli counts that are present in New Orleans' flood water.

see:

http://www.epa.gov/katrina/testresults/index.html

Click on Biological testing

The major health issue is pumping the pathogen contaminated water into Lake Ponchatrain. With the number of Chlor-Alkali plants on the Mississippi, it would have been quite easy to ship down a barge of chlorine and inject the chlorine while pumping. I am extremely familar with Chlor-Alkali operations and chlorine.

As you will notice, there are only a few chemicals that exceed EPA limits: click on Chemical Testing on EPA site.

So the disinfection byproducts, such as THMs, would be very low.

However, the main reason the city is being dewatered extremely fast is to prevent FIRES. Fires and Flooding go hand in hand. With the amount of petroleum products floating on the surface it is an accident waiting to happen.

Although Louisiana has ample fire fighting barges and tugs, the draft of these vessels limits them from going down a neighborhood street to battle a fire. In addition, you will notice that many of the small boats had their outboard motors raised (tilted) for shallow water operation. This is primarily due to the downed power lines lying beneath the surface of the water.

I battled two shipboard fires and a water surface fire. When water is burning on top of water the only safe place to go is down! It is a matter of how long you can hold your breath and swim underwater to a safe distance.

Above and beyond all else, SAFETY comes first. Contaminated water is a health issue and takes a distance second to SAFETY. You must first make the area SAFE to begin reconstruction.

And with that being said, until last year, AFOs and CAFOs were not regulated. Thus, if you or your children fished, swam or played in water near a large animal feeding operation the bacteria counts were probably just as high in that stream as what is in the flood waters in New Orleans.

I do think there will be a problem with enhancing the already nutrient enriched GOM. The "DEAD ZONE" will probably increase in size.






Todd

http://www.oxilume.com

 

[rmw]

Todd,

I gave you another star. What you have proposed is a real and doable solution to problems mentioned in this thread. That is just what I had called for above.

I have no basis to accept nor deny your claims, but my judgement leads me to assume that if they weren't substantiable, you wouldn't be on this site making them to a bunch of technogeeks who would know better.

Now, how you get that into place and working for the general good, that is another matter. Regarding the realistic possibilities of that, I might just have to become a hand wringer.

Does anybody know how to get hold of a producer at the Bill O'Reilly show at Fox News? I think it will take something like that to bypass the gov't red tape at all levels to get your system implemented.

Best of luck.

rmw