Consequences of Pumping Out New Orleans 8

[SlideRuleEra]

There are several ongoing threads about New Orleans in various forums, but I have not seen this issue discussed:

The flood water in the city of New Orleans is reported to be an unhealthy, disgusting mix of waste, chemicals, and who knows what else. The Corps of Engineers is quoted as saying that the city can be dewatered by the end of 2005, using the installed Wood screw pumping system. These pumps discharge into Lake Pontchartrain and Lake Borgne; both lakes eventually drain into the Gulf of Mexico.

I wonder if existing environmental pollution laws are going to be waived or ignored? Have always heard that "Dilution is not the solution".

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[boo1]

Appears that oxilume has hit government bureaucracy RED tape. Its easier to just do nothing. Introducing any purification measures, omits the problem of pumping contaminated flood waters and adds time to the effort.

It's not that I am for pumping these polluted waters to the lake, it's that there is a HUGE political pressure for the flood waters to be cleared allowing reconstruction to begin.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Someone check my math, please:

Oxilume has an inventory of exactly two ozonators, each of which can treat 50,000 gpm.

The design rated flow of ONE Wood screw pump is 247,500 gpm at 7 feet of lift. And that's for the _small_ one.

If Oxilume could produce another ~498 ozonators in the next day or two, the proposal might be taken seriously.




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[cvg]

It would take only 5 ozonators to treat the flow from the one pump you mention, not 500. However, your point is valid - as I mentioned previously, there are/were literally tens of thousands of acre-feet of water in the city that could be treated if somebody could come up with a reasonable method to do it. However, I would be more concerned with the hydrocarbons and other pollutants than I would with the BOD.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Oxilume doesn't _have_ 5 ozonators.

NO does have more than one Wood pump; I was guessing they have a hundred, but I think the number is higher, and the 14 foot pumps would take ~ten ozonators each.

Because the Wood pump requires a flooded suction, they should tend to concentrate the hydrocarbons on the surface of the suction sumps. In which case the skimmers that should be present in the area to deal with maritime oil spills could be effective, if anyone can find them and get them into the right place.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[cvg]

News on stormwater pumps

Note: 3,000 cubic meters equals 792,516 gallons or 13,200 gpm

Dutch Water Experts and Water Pumps Arrive in United States
9/13/2005 8:59:00 AM

WASHINGTON, Sept. 13 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A team of five Dutch experts from the Directorate General for Public Works and Water Management (Rijkswaterstaat) and three mobile water pumps arrived in New Orleans to help pump the flood waters from the areas affected by Hurricane Katrina. The Dutch experts, working under the direction and in close cooperation with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, will prioritize the needs of the Corps of Engineers and place the pumps where needed. The Dutch experts will also offer assistance on fixing damaged pumps.

The experts and pumps are at the Army Corps of Engineers headquarters in New Orleans. The water pumps can expel 3,000 cubic meters of water an hour and each pump can run for 48 hours continuously on one tank of diesel fuel. Once the Army Corps of Engineers directs the Dutch experts to where the pumps are needed, the pumps can be up and running within three days. Because these pumps are mobile, they can be easily transported to different locations. Dutch water pumps have been used with great success in several countries including Suriname, Poland, and the Netherlands.

At present, the experts from the Directorate General for Public Works and Water Management and the pumps are scheduled to stay in the United States for at least 30 days, however this time could be extended or shortened based on the Army's needs.

The Directorate General for Public Works and Water Management is responsible for managing the water table in the Netherlands. The offer of assistance from the Netherlands is due to a Memorandum of Agreement between the Directorate and the Army Corps of Engineers to share expertise in the field of water management, which was signed in May of 2004.

http://www.usnewswire.com/

 

[MikeHalloran]

Sixteen more like that, and you'd have ... one 12 foot Wood pump equivalent. Hell, plug 'em in anywhere, and make sure the experts pee outside the levee, too. Every little bit helps.

No disrespect to the Dutch is intended. I'm still trying to get my head around the flow that's required to keep the city merely humid in a normal rainstorm.







Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[boo1]

Compounded by the problems of high water table and poor perk.

 

[rmw]

How do you say 'perk to the minus one?' Seepage is more like it.

rmw

 

[SlideRuleEra]

This link covers the ongoing health and environmental concerns related to Hurricane Katrina

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/hurricanes/environmental.asp

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[unclesyd]

It is rather interesting in looking at the recommendations from the CDC, especially for masks/respirators. Several times over the weekend there were groups of soldiers using leaf blowers bare faced without any type of mask. Of all the civilian workers I've seen there are very few that are using any type of masks.

Mold is the big problem and to mediate the problem there is going to have to be some relaxation of a few rules to use things like Chlorine Dioxide, p-dichlorobenzene, and few others to alleviate the mold.

The water:
Just read an article that has scientifically proven what has generally been known by mariners and fisherman for years that the waters from the Mississippi end up on the East Coast.

 

[ctmtwilliams]

Mold in New Orleans! OMG! I never knew things could get moldy in the Gulf Coast. LOL!! I'm sure glad we have people who can raise our awareness to these problems that we may otherwise have never known to exist!

 

[unclesyd]

ctmtwilliams,
If you had read the post by SlideRuleEra and referenced the the link provided you should have caught my drift in that someone is going to have to makes decision, currently in short supply, about the use of forbidden chemicals on the molds.

By any chance are you a levee inspector?

 

[ctmtwilliams]

OK Uncle, it seems you missed my drift. The point I was making is that mold issues are common place in NO. Yes, I read the other post and read through much of the EPA material. In fact, the people I was referring to was the EPA, not you, so try not to take things so personal and please refrain from making personal attacks.

I see no reason to back off of existing regulations which were created for the protection of the public. The people of NO will be exposed to enough different hazards, there is no reason to add additional toxic chemicals to the mix.

 

[cvg]

there is no way to treat any of these buildings (for mold) until they are entirely dry - a long time in the future. And the reality is that most wood frames will need to be just torn down and hauled to the landfill. Probably, only the steel and concrete structures can be saved and cleaned. Another good question, where is the landfill that can take all this debris? Will they need to site and permit a new one?

 

[unclesyd]

ctmtwilliams,
Sorry about that, my fault, a little on edge from fighting with COE again about my roof damage incurred after IVAN perpetrated by their contractor.

cvg,
We have had very good success using dichlorobenzene to eradicate mold in yachts that been sunk and raised. We seal them up with a couple pounds of chemical and let set for a week. The results are excellent. We then revarnish and paint again with excellent results.

One thing about some of the older houses (shotgun) is they are constructed from heart pine and cypress with tongue and groove paneling and siding. . These woods clean up very nicely after being submerged. The paint on a lot os the older houses has a lead based pigments, good for prevent mold and mildew bad for everything else. I’ll agree that houses in the lower areas need to be carefully evaluated. Bringing everything above sea level presents a very big problem to determine the cutoff point 2,4,6...12 feet
and how far do you a carry this around the country.

The big patched area on 17th street cannel sure looks shaky and is leaking. They had better keep the pumps in place.

Take a look at the first page of pictures especially the two small tank farms.

http://www.mvd.usace.army.mil/hurricane/chr.php

 

[MikeHalloran]

Leaf blowers are another scourge of modern civilization.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[francesca]

Another good question, where is the landfill that can take all this debris? Will they need to site and permit a new one?

We were talking about this in class today. (Unfortunately I didn't write down the numbers.) Apparently the EPA has suspended all regulations in the Gulf Coast area during the clean-up. They're burning the debris, not putting it into a land-fill. From this Corps of Engineers site:

FEMA estimates that there are currently about 18 to 20 million cubic yards of debris in the hurricane impacted area of Mississippi. This equates to 200 football fields piled 50 feet high.

(Note that that's only Mississippi.)

 

[rmw]

Why couldn't they use all this debris to bring the elevation of NO up to above sea level?

rmw

 

[unclesyd]

And you thought the water pollution was bad. Didn't someone mention don't swim in the lake, I say don't climb out of the lake.

http://2coolfishing.com/ttmbforum/showthread.php?t=15707&highlight=snakes+rigs

These actually came from the time of Hurricane Ivan and most are inside a tank farm dike.

 

[rmw]

Just two years after Camille hit below NO LA, I was a young Field Service Eng'r for a major turbine OEM, and as such, I had to go to a lot of rigs in the marsh near Buras and Venice LA where Camille had struck to do service and overhauls. The craft people were locals, and Camille was still fresh on their mind, and a lot of the damage was still evident. (There was no FEMA to clean up in those days.)

There were lots of stories, as there will be with Katrina and now Rita, but the one I have never forgotten was about a fellow who had sought refuge in the tallest and strongest structure in the area which was the movie theater constructed mostly of concrete.

He, in order to get higher than the storm surge and flooding got all the way up into the projection booth and rode out the storm there still about waist deep.

He survived, and that was the good news. The bad news was that he shared that booth with hundreds of snakes of all kinds, including poisonous, also driven to the highest place.

He was never bitten, no not one time, but the 2-3 days he spent up there with all the snakes before he was rescued drove him out of his mind, and he was never right again.

This was a hear-say story, as I did not meet the person myself, but I have always believed in the sincerity of the teller of the tale.

Hurricanes do strange things.

rmw