Considering Career Change to Medical Field 12

[m_ridzon]

I'm in my mid-40s and am an established engineer. MSME degree. P.E. I'm paid well and don't really have any complaints about engineering. Married w/two adolescent kids. No mortgage, no debt. I have an itch to go to medical school to become a plastic surgeon. This seems like a very severe pivot in my life and I know it would not be easy. But the itch is there. I have had an interest in that world for years, but only recently did a light bulb go on with an idea to become a surgeon. It would be roughly 4yrs of med school and 6yrs of residency. I'd have to save up the cash beforehand, since we don't do debt. I would likely have to quit working to do med school full-time. We would have to live off my wife's income, which will reduce our lifestyle significantly but not be impossible. My main question is whether this is wise or not, considering my age, my comfy engineering position, and the severity of the pivot in my life. I'm curious if anyone else here can relate or has a story to share about a similar experience.

 

[m_ridzon]

@Christine74, I appreciate your candor, but you definitely caught me off guard.

All because of an "itch"? Not trying to be rude but is it possible that you have Bipolar Disorder, ADHD, or something other condition that makes you act impulsively?

No, I'm not impulsive. No action has been taken thus far. No I do not have any of those disorders. I'm merely dreaming and considering possibilities. All people dream. Vocalizing those things doesn't make you bipolar or ADHD. Although you don't know me, I'm stunned you came to that conclusion from my post. I certainly hope someone doesn't label you that way next time you dream out loud. I'm fully aware of what has been invested into engineering thus far. That is one big reason I didn't impulsively dive into this medical idea already. I would never dive into it until I have counted all the costs, spoke to my spouse and family, and decided that I was 100% invested in this new idea.

Another thing to consider if you took the plastic surgery route is that you would be competing with people 20-25 years younger than you and most of them will probably be using Adderall, Ritalin, or other stimulants to help them study.

I'm stunned. I never heard of this occurring or even considered it as an option. I suppose younger folks may use that to help them study but my gut tells me the percentage of users is probably not as high as you surmised. However, when I went through the rigorous engineering curricula, I used brute force, with no stimulants. I studied many hours. Many sleepless nights. Tons and tons of hard work. As I have pondered this medical topic over the recent weeks, I thought those engineering academic experiences would be an advantage, thereby giving me the tenacity required for medical school. But it sounds like you have insider information on the "edge" that is required to get through medical school. Thanks but no thanks.

 

[IRstuff]

I thought those engineering academic experiences would be an advantage, thereby giving me the tenacity required for medical school. But it sounds like you have insider information on the "edge" that is required to get through medical school.

That's not the issue; the issue is that no one is the same person they were 25 years ago. Even your basic metabolism might no longer be the same; the demands of being a father to a newborn, or even a toddler, would potentially sap one's energy reserves, even if they were much younger. I think that after living through your child not sleeping through the night, your younger competitors will appear as if they were on drugs, even if they weren't.

Note also, residency is not a slam dunk, unless you have pre-knowledge of your future; it may entail unrooting your family or spending 4-6 years away from them.

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[Christine74]

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't mean to offend and I certainly didn't make any conclusions, it just seemed very unusual to me because I don't know anyone that's made that big of a career change that late in life.

I've read a few articles on the topic of stimulant use becoming more and more common as a "study aid". From recent graduates I've spoken with one admitted that they used Adderall to prep for an exam, but all of them said that they knew students who used it to help them study/focus. When I was in school I never once heard of anyone using/abusing prescription stimulants in order to help them study.

-Christine

 

[m_ridzon]

That's not the issue; the issue is that no one is the same person they were 25 years ago. Even your basic metabolism might no longer be the same; the demands of being a father to a newborn, or even a toddler, would potentially sap one's energy reserves, even if they were much younger. I think that after living through your child not sleeping through the night, your younger competitors will appear as if they were on drugs, even if they weren't.

Fair enough. You make a valid point. I do know those were hard times when I went through my BSME, PE, and fairly recently, my MSME. The point I was trying to make is that those times were very formative for me, in terms of knowing how hard and far I am capable of going. In some ways, I kind of surprised myself. Younger people don't have the advantage of knowing that about themselves in their 20s.

Note also, residency is not a slam dunk, unless you have pre-knowledge of your future; it may entail unrooting your family or spending 4-6 years away from them.

Yes, I am fully aware of that. It's another wrinkle that I would have to think through and get my spouse's feedback on.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't mean to offend, it just seemed unusual to me because I don't know anyone that's made a big career change that late in life.

Fair enough. We can let bygones be bygones. I'm certainly not turning away feedback. I knew my post would invite some criticism and at the very least, it's worth thinking about. That said, I digest enough business, professional, and personal development podcasts, books, and other literature to know it's not too wild and crazy for a person to step up to challenges like this when they have the fortitude to face it. People reinvent themselves all the time. I have read countless stories folks who have done that. So the idea didn't seem quite as crazy to me, as it struck you.

I've read a few articles on the topic of stimulant use becoming more and more common as a "study aid". From recent graduates I've spoken with one admitted that they used Adderall to prep for an exam, but all of them said that they knew students who used it to help them study/focus. I expect that it would be more common in more demanding academic programs like medicine.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[SWComposites]

Ok, jumping back in here. And while I typically encourage people to go where their passions take them, there is a bit of reality that usually needs to be considered.
Assuming you can work out the expenses, and time issues, and get thru undergrad pre-requisites, and get into medical school (and that's quite difficult from what I have read), and get thru med school and get accepted into surgical residency, ...
What do you see your business model as a plastic surgeon? You mentioned aesthetic cosmetic surgery where you don't have to deal with insurance. Presumably this would be working in private practice? There is a huge amount of start up costs associated with that, and then the issue of building up a reputation to attract business; or do you see yourself joining an existing practice? Do you see yourself as working for the rich and famous? If so, do you have the sales/marketing/personality skills to move in those circles? Have you met many surgeons? They all seem like Type A+ personality types; is that you?

 

[IRstuff]

They all seem like Type A+ personality types; is that you?

I think that's a trained response, starting off with a "fake it until you make it" approach; being beset by self-doubt would make even non-surgeons, and even engineers, less effective. We learn through experience and possibly some compartmentalization to bury those questioning voices in our minds and simply "believe" that we're right. It might help to bang your head against the wall to effectualize that; Dilbert's manager did that in one strip ;-)

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[m_ridzon]

What do you see your business model as a plastic surgeon? You mentioned aesthetic cosmetic surgery where you don't have to deal with insurance. Presumably this would be working in private practice?

Yes I am solely interested in private practice.

There is a huge amount of start up costs associated with that, and then the issue of building up a reputation to attract business;

I agree on having startup costs. I'm aware that issue lingers out there but haven't gotten that far in my thought processes, in terms of how to handle it. Before diving in, I would need to think through that.

...or do you see yourself joining an existing practice?

No, I do not see myself joining an existing practice. Concurrently with this plastic surgery itch, I have an entrepreneurial itch to run my own business. I would need to think through how I can launch a private practice.

Do you see yourself as working for the rich and famous?

Not necessarily. However, I have identified a niche in plastic surgery that is sought after, but underserved. Many surgeons shy away from this area and I'm aware why they do, but don't hold the same apprehension they do. I have interfaced with other surgeons that do serve this area and can see that it's an area that could be better served.

Have you met many surgeons?

As mentioned in my initial post, I've been following this world for years. Yes, I've met a few dozen surgeons, but not to inquire about becoming one. Rather, my wife is interested in having plastic surgery, which has meant dozens of consultations with prospective surgeons to discuss her goals.

They all seem like Type A+ personality types; is that you?

On the DiSC profile assessment, I'm a DC, which is akin to the A personality you mention. I have no issues filling a "lead/trailblazer" type of role.

 

[IRstuff]

I'm aware why they do, but don't hold the same apprehension they do.

Sometimes, people are afraid because they are just fearful; other times, they are justifiably fearful. Sometimes, the apparent lack of risk is just because of only hearing anecdotally favorable information or sheer luck on the part of participants. NASA has burned itself many times because of rose-colored glasses from escaping catastrophes, until they actually do happen

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[m_ridzon]

Sometimes, people are afraid because they are just fearful; other times, they are justifiably fearful. Sometimes, the apparent lack of risk is just because of only hearing anecdotally favorable information or sheer luck on the part of participants. NASA has burned itself many times because of rose-colored glasses from escaping catastrophes, until they actually do happen

Without going into all of the details, here's a metaphor I can give to explain the apprehension...it might be akin to walking into a skydiving place to ask if you can skydive. The instructor will say "yes you can do that, we have done it many times and feel comfortable doing it, but you have to sign a waiver so you fully understand the risks." Despite adequate training and experience, the fraction of the general population willing to be skydiving instructors is low. Few people are willing to take that risk to help others have a skydiving jumping experience.

Please refrain from nitpicking my metaphor as I'm sure you'll want to poke holes in it. At a bird's eye view, the point is that the niche has a market, but the doctors willing to serve that market is slim because they don't want to take those risks. But there are plenty of prospective patients who have done the cost-benefit analysis and are willing to take those risks. Using my metaphor, some patients want to go skydiving and I would be a willing skydiving instructor that can help them have that experience, after all risks have been disclosed and agreed upon.

As mentioned, I've been following this world for years. So I have heard the arguments on both sides of the fence for this niche area. I'm fully aware of where many surgeons stand and why. I'm also fully aware of the few that are willing to serve this niche. Those few are "skydiving instructors" (using my metaphor) that are trained and willing to help people have that experience.

And before you would say "risks should not be taken when it comes to someone's health,"...I hear you loud and clear. Realize though, the moment the knife ever touches the body for ANY surgery, risks are incurred, no matter what. There's no escaping it. Hopefully the surgeon is skilled enough to mitigate those risks as much as possible. And many prospective patients are willing to undergo surgery for seemingly unnecessary cosmetic reasons. However, there is plenty of data demonstrating the upsides that can come from cosmetic surgery, which is a whole other conversation in and of itself.

 

[IRstuff]

I wasn't trying to nitpick any metaphor; I was merely trying to point out that overconfidence, particularly with the lack of concrete experience, can be ill-advised.

Additionally, even when you do, or did, have the experience, it may no longer be valid; I used to do a tiny bit of skateboarding in my 20's, but when I tried to teach my kid, I wound up dislocating my elbow and ripping several muscles.

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[TigerGuy]

We are all curious, how did the conversation with your wife?

 

[ilovechickens]

I was reading this and I think this is a great idea. Would be interested to hear what the wife thought. If you as a family can make it work why not. Life is too short to not follow your dreams sometimes. You have at least 20 more years of your working life ahead of you - I am a firm believer that you have to love your job if you can because you spend do long there. Often there were things we wanted to do when we were younger that just were not possible for a number of reasons, so plenty of people change career.

In the country I live in I believe there is a restriction on the age you are allowed to go to med school, this is because of the length of time it takes to train Drs and the training cost is subsidized by the government, so they want to make sure they get a return on their investment. I am not sure what the cut of age is. (and it is a bit stupid as most young Drs disappear off shore anyway).

I am also thinking about passing in my engineering career for something else. I would like to work part time with animals and do some charity work, and also thinking about going back to university and doing a degree in medieval history, or something similar. Not because I have to, but because I want to. I have done the hard stuff, sucked up the corporate bull, been a slave to the morg, worked for years while managing a family and I have realised the last year or so that I am tired. Really tired. I have been interviewing for other jobs but don't actually think that a new job in engineering is the change I need - I think I need to get out of engineering. I also need to have that discussion with my partner, but I suspect he will say go for it as he has been telling me for a long time to quit my job as he is fed up with me being under huge stress, working long long hours for little thanks.

 

[m_ridzon]

I was reading this and I think this is a great idea. Would be interested to hear what the wife thought. If you as a family can make it work why not. Life is too short to not follow your dreams sometimes. You have at least 20 more years of your working life ahead of you - I am a firm believer that you have to love your job if you can because you spend do long there. Often there were things we wanted to do when we were younger that just were not possible for a number of reasons, so plenty of people change career.

In the country I live in I believe there is a restriction on the age you are allowed to go to med school, this is because of the length of time it takes to train Drs and the training cost is subsidized by the government, so they want to make sure they get a return on their investment. I am not sure what the cut of age is. (and it is a bit stupid as most young Drs disappear off shore anyway).

I am also thinking about passing in my engineering career for something else. I would like to work part time with animals and do some charity work, and also thinking about going back to university and doing a degree in medieval history, or something similar. Not because I have to, but because I want to. I have done the hard stuff, sucked up the corporate bull, been a slave to the morg, worked for years while managing a family and I have realised the last year or so that I am tired. Really tired. I have been interviewing for other jobs but don't actually think that a new job in engineering is the change I need - I think I need to get out of engineering. I also need to have that discussion with my partner, but I suspect he will say go for it as he has been telling me for a long time to quit my job as he is fed up with me being under huge stress, working long long hours for little thanks.

Great insight! Thank you for sharing!

We are all curious, how did the conversation with your wife?

Well, I know some people in this thread scorned me and was sure my wife was going to stomp out the idea immediately. However, I had the conversation with her last weekend during a road trip. It went perfectly fine and she didn't stomp out the idea. It did catch her off guard slightly, but not much since we tend to dream big like this and share openly in our transparent marriage (e.g., she just threw me her career curveball few months ago and the discussion went fine). Of course, she knows me better than anyone on the planet. Therefore, she pointed out observations she immediately made in the situation...things about me and my personality that may be a factor in the situation. So she gave me some things to think about. We talked about obvious logistical things...how to fund it, how to live solely on her income, how the kids would fare, whether we'd have to move, how we'd fund a clinic startup at the end, etc. We didn't nail down answers on most of them, but they were all laid out on the table so we at least have an idea what we are diving into. I told her about this thread here, but she didn't want to see it since these types of conversations online are pretty predictable; i.e., some folks will say "go for it," some will say "ridiculous idea."

Bottom line...no decision was made. Her and I will chew on it for a while and see what comes of it. If the idea fades, that is fine. If the idea intensifies, that is fine too and we'll talk about next steps. For whatever it's worth, she had absolutely no doubt we could make it happen if we wanted. Our marriage has seen a lot and it's become pretty fortified through times of trial.

 

[LittleInch]

Compromise, go into biomechanical engineering in that field.

SRE got there before me, but you don't seem to have responded. A degree or course would be 3-4 yrs max, there is a need for people with real life experience in this field and could this be an alternative path if you don't fancy engineering for ever?

Also looking at your responses, there seems to be some mysterious "niche area" that you are focussing on. Can you enlarge on that?

If many people back away from whatever this is, it sounds to me to be even more risky than anything else.

To go through 8-10 years before even getting close to practicing this sounds like a journey too far to me.

My father though did something similar. Slightly forced upon him as his gov't job and institution was closing. Could have taken the very generous terms offered but decided to go into Law, from education. Studied part time for a couple of years and then full time including mandatory training for another two.

Basically found a niche where he acted as locum for single handed solicitors or those who suddenly had a surge of work and also took on firms who had been shut down by the regulator for fraud, lack of action or illness / death and managed the wind down of that company. Did enough to make it seem worthwhile doing the studying, but then my mother was a saint, spending many evenings alone as he studied hard into the night.

So it can be done - as with all such decisions, does the upside pay for the downside, literally in terms of $ or mentally or relationship wise?

Personally not for me and I can't quite see the desire burning through in your posts tbh.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[m_ridzon]

SRE got there before me, but you don't seem to have responded. A degree or course would be 3-4 yrs max, there is a need for people with real life experience in this field and could this be an alternative path if you don't fancy engineering for ever?

I saw the response about biomedical engineering and took note of it. I didn't see a need to respond, as it merely seemed like an idea I could ponder, which I've done.

Also looking at your responses, there seems to be some mysterious "niche area" that you are focussing on. Can you enlarge on that?

No, I'm not going to expound on that niche. Folks who don't have an appreciation for the art of cosmetic surgery will simply scorn me and the niche. Mainstream culture already holds a stigma on cosmetic surgery, so I'm not going to willingly throw myself into that debate here in this thread.

If many people back away from whatever this is, it sounds to me to be even more risky than anything else.

Yes, it comes with risks. But so doesn't skydiving. However, if done properly, those risks can be minimized and the recipient can enjoy the experience.

So it can be done - as with all such decisions, does the upside pay for the downside, literally in terms of $ or mentally or relationship wise?

Personally not for me and I can't quite see the desire burning through in your posts tbh.

The burning desire is there. You don't detect it in the thread because it is contrasted against reality of the cost (relational, financial, emotional, etc.). Everyone of those factors are completely apparent to me. If I could rewind 15yrs, I would likely forgo engineering for this surgery idea. The strong desire is definitely there though.

 

[LittleInch]

Interesting.

If you can't come clean now though to a bunch of like minded engineers in an anonymous Internet forum, how are you going to do this to friends and family face to face? Wouldn't it be better to get your defence lined practiced here.

I used to skydive so can see where your coming from but this sounds more to me like BASE jumping. Sure people do it but I never did - too much risk even for me - and you're trying to be an instrutor despite never having yet done any skydiving?

It does sound though that you harbour quite a bit of regret you didn't go down that path??

It sounds like you know your shit though and good luck if you determine this is the way to go.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[m_ridzon]

Interesting.

If you can't come clean now though to a bunch of like minded engineers in an anonymous Internet forum, how are you going to do this to friends and family face to face? Wouldn't it be better to get your defence lined practiced here.

This is not the correct setting to bring it up and it's not exactly anonymous with my handle having my name. If I were a surgeon, it'd be no issue for me to proclaim what I do. As an engineer working on commercial nuclear power plants, it is no different than visiting family in Kentucky that lives and dies by coal-powered plants. When visiting, I am aware of the setting I'm in and take necessary precautions to avoid mention of nuclear so I can avoid confrontation, ridicule, and scorn.

I used to skydive so can see where your coming from but this sounds more to me like BASE jumping. Sure people do it but I never did - too much risk even for me - and you're trying to be an instrutor despite never having yet done any skydiving?

I see your metaphor. However, it doesn't exactly translate to this setting entirely. Plenty of surgeons have never had plastic surgery. It's not required to undergo plastic surgery to become a surgeon. On the contrary, to start, at a minimum, it would be required to have an interest in it, along with some layman's background, of which I certainly have both of those.

It does sound though that you harbour quite a bit of regret you didn't go down that path??

No, I don't harbor quite a bit of regret for not doing it. As mentioned in my initial post, I'm okay where I'm at as an engineer. I'm content and probably could be content staying with engineering. But I didn't know then what I know now. I didn't know then that plastic surgery might be so intriguing. So as a dreamer (coupled with pragmatism), I like to ponder possibility and wonder about bigger and better things that interest me.

 

[LittleInch]

This is quite a fascinating thread alright.

The key issue I think you need to consider here is your family life and situation and how different that is now compared to what would be your fellow students aged 18-20 and what you were like then. as said I saw my mother left alone for long periods when all of us had flown the nest as my father did his training for law and that was only 3-4 years. You're talking 10 and from what I can see about $250-300,000 in course fees. Paying that back over 30-40 yr working life compared to your ~10-15 is a big difference.

It really is about the biggest pivot and change you could possibly think of compared to reinvention or alternative careers so thinking long hard and challenging yourself to see if this "dream" is worth the undoubted change and pain is a good process. I really do wish you luck and hope you come back to us ins a few weeks or months and let us know what you decided to do.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Fischstabchen]

I am not you so I don't know how you evaluate certain things. I would strongly try to determine what you like about a job and try to fit it into a side gig or a related occupation. People get hung up on needing to do a certain thing and often when they get a chance to do that thing, it never was all that they expected and the stuff that they didn't like still followed them, shitty customers, shitty bosses, shitty co-workers etc.

I can only speak for myself but there is a very real chance that your sidetracking into the medical field might exhaust you. You can get away with all nighters and extremely hard efforts in you 20s and 30s but it becomes much more difficult later on. I am not saying that it is impossible but you might be pushed to the point where it is not fun or as interesting as you expected.

I have heard of people sidetracking so it is not entirely an unheard of thing but often in essense they are buying another job.

10 years ago I strongly considered going into data science due to issues I was encountering with regard to harrassment and discrimination I was running into. I think I would have been happier but it had nothing to do with the work. I could have jumped shipped then and made quickly where I should be now. I think it would have been enough to interest me and I would have been compensated fairly. I don't know what to say know. I could still make that transition but the motivation isn't as much there. I think switching fields makes more sense later on when the work environment is no longer tolerable or the body can no longer handle the work.

 

[geotechguy1]

I often wonder what percentage of engineers regret choosing the profession. I reckon if you don't get fast-tracked early on as a project manager / manager / client manager type it is a terrible profession.