Controls: Open or not? do we care!?

[xnetfly]

Ok.. So I have had a number of controls contractors (Too many) coming in to my office pitching the idea of open protocol and different open market controllers. My question is.. is there really such thing as an OPEN PROTOCOL controller?

My analogy : Linux Open Source OS, Windows OS .... Millions of people still prefer windows...

What is so special about open protocol that you can NOT do with N2 bus or any other propriety control network?

 

[IRstuff]

Can't say definitively, but as in Windows, there may be backdoors through the protocol for those in the know, and those that don't wind up having a less efficient solution.

Ostensibly, then, an open-protocol would put everyone on an even footing, allowing more competition for peripherals, subsystems, etc.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[sprinkler1000]

I am not a controls expert, but as I understand, open protocol allows to have devices from different manufacturers.
I do not think the analogy with Windows is correct, because Windows is a standard in the industry and allows many softwares that will run on it.

 

[IRstuff]

"allows many softwares that will run on it."

Yes, but the claim, from the gripers, is that MS has special backdoors for its own products, compared to say, Symphony or Quattro.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[mauricestoker]

The only controls contractor that I know of that can push open BACNET-IP through an N2 line is JCI. There is the alternative of using N2 gateways, such as by S4.

 

[DRWeig]

Basically, if you have N2 or a proprietary protocol on your bus, you're limited somewhat in which field devices you can stick on there without buying a gateway of some sort.

While that's a limiting factor, it's not too awful limiting -- a lot of 3rd parties make N2 compliant versions of their products. Not as many as are available with BACnet or LON, but a bunch.

If it's totally proprietary and hard to hack, you're stuck with what you can buy from the proprietary controls manufacturer.

That's it in a nutshell. If the end user is a small office building or mom-n-pop grocery, who cares? They're not going to be expanding or renovating hardly ever, and they don't need lots of specialty sensors or loop controllers. If the end user is a university, hospital, school district, military base, etc..., it's a different story. They may value the ability to apply multiple manufacturers' products to their BAS network.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

 

[imok2]

Another problem we ran into with proprietary protocol is that the mfg had too much control over prices

 

[JVKS]

open protocol is a great idea and depending on the size of the project I would always recommend it. it allows a single central computer to control many different maufacturers equipment. keep in mind that the underlying controls in the individual buildings are still that manufacturers controls. for example a honeywell head end may be able to talk with a JCI or Siemens(is it still siemens) but the actual controller in that building is still JCI and has JCI programs and would most likely need to be maintianed by contractor familiar with JCI equipment and programming.


open protocol is not always open protocol. often you are limited in what you can do. sometimes the claims by some manufacters is not all they say. most are very open and the amount of data you can get can be overwhelming.

I know the Tridium system is sold under many different names and allows the interface to many different type of controller manufacturers.

 

[ParadigmEnergy]

I think the real advantage is avoiding useless manufacturer's service contracts. If the software is open and accessible then it ensures excellent (ie competitive) service. From a recommissioning perspective it's great to have a crackerjack service company to work with rather than an over-paid, under-skilled, and over-worked contractor.

Matthew

 

[cry22]

Some good answers here.
Things not to confuse "being Bacnet compatible" does not mean it is bacnet, to get BacNet, you need to spec "Native BacNet".
Keep in mind though, that native bacnet is not widely available (JCI/Atoumated Logic - Allerton - Delta and I believe KMC are the only native bacnet I know), well, there may be others. So, if you like Trane equipment,do you want Tracer Summit with it? ot do you want Trane equipment and JCI controls? (any french fries with that?)

I see the OP point though, once you commit to one control guy, you are not likely to change company anyway, but I'd recommend better warranty laguage.

The one thing I see poorly written is the warranty on controls. what happens if you get a virus? a crash? can you revert to default Cx'd systems, do you get third party (Tridium) warranties, automatic updates at no charge, etc.

 

[mauricestoker]

After you get the Trane and JCI coordinated, you'll probably find the cooling tower manufacturer (like BAC) wants to be secretive about their own proprietary controls, and just share how many control leads will be needed. Just finished a JCI/Trane/BAC controls dispute last week.

 

[DRWeig]

cry22:

What exactly is "native" BACnet other than a marketing term? It does not appear in the BACnet standard at all...

Curious, I am.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave