Copying company contacts from outlook 6

[proletariat]

Today is my last day, and I would like to have some of the contacts that are in the company's outlook directory. I can import these into google mail for my future personal use.

Ethical or Unethical?

 

[kchayfie]

I think it depends on the work involved in creating the contact list as well. If, to borrow Greg's example a lot of time, effort and expense cultivating contacts who had contacts who knew suppliers that spoke english it would be unethical to then take details of that contact unless they were also in your personal contacts list.

If the list contains contact details that are freely and easily available (e.g. phone numbers posted on the suppliers website, and you can get the local reps name by calling them)then I don't really see any issues with taking a copy of that list.

 

[HVACctrl]

Points taken.
No contract with your employer not to copy contact lists? Then its OK.

Employment contract that says you can't copy anything? Better work on your memory skills or it may be unethical if you signed that contract.

Also, if you did sign that contract, you should have been making some serious money to adhere to such absurdity.

Ed

 

[JAE]

Ed,

I understand where you are coming from in terms of names and phone numbers of people "out there" in the business world - people-data which you could easily re-generate on your own after leaving your firm. That data seems innocuous enough and its always hard to say that it is intellectual property.

But the original question, again, was about the ethics of taking an electronic file(s) from your employer upon leaving...not its legality. Is it morally right to take an electronic file from your employer when it was created by an employee of the firm (you), during work hours, and for the purpose of assisting the firm in better managing customers and clients?

You can make up all sorts of scenarios about "I did it on my own initiative after fulfilling all my work duties" - but that's just trying to justify the action. Its still unethical. As an employer, I could counter-justify you by saying, "If you got all your duties done, why didn't you come to me for more billable work instead of preparing that database?", or "Thanks for using your PAID for work time to create such a valuable database FOR OUR FIRM." You simply can't get around the fact that the company paid for that data and owns it.

I've got certain spreadsheets that I created on company time. They belong to the company since they paid me (my salary) for them, regardless of whether I was fulfilling my specific job duties. No one asked me to make them. I was the only one who percieved that they would be needed and valuable. But that doesn't change the fact that the company paid for them and owns them. I've got other engineering spreadsheets that I made at home and use at work - they are mine.

The electronic Outlook file that was created may have further data, beyond yellow pages info, and if so, that makes it even more unethical to take from the firm.

The company can always be asked, and give permission to take the data, which would then make it ethical. But without that knowledge and concurrence, its wrong to do it.

 

[HVACctrl]

Makes sense JAE. I can see your point.

Maybe its a gray area. What if they deny you just out of spite? Does their petty denial of electronically copying (and still leaving the original copy for their use as required) determine whether its ethical or not? I guess it can be argues that whatever their reason, if they say no or you think they might say no, but you do it anyway, then its unethical.

What if you assume they don't mind, you don't bother to even bother anyone with the request and you do it innocently? That could be considered an innocent, ethical act by some.

I guess we can argue and spin it the way we see fit. I just think that engineers are way too constricted by certain limitations. I don't condone doing unethical things, don't get me wrong. I just think that sometimes people think we need straight jackets to keep our hands out of the cookie jar. We typically know well enough when not to go into the jar on our own.

Ed

 

[JAE]

Ed - "gray area" ... you hit the nail on the head for sure as is evidenced by our running (and friendly I hope) debate here. Ethics seminars thrive on posing difficult situations where these sorts of point-counterpoint conversations happen.

I would think though, that this is a good thing - gets us all thinking and at least considering the ethics of a particular behavior.

 

[Ron]

JAE...well said.

Just ask your boss if you can take the info. He might just say "Yes".

 

[IRstuff]

Functionally, it's a bit tricky about the fate of address books and the like.

Our company's Outlook address list is strictly internal; there are no outside email addresses there. To some degree, that's probably a good thing, since a successful email worm would hit our all of our customers. An individual's Outlook addresses are rarely that interesting, since any customer is usually in several people's address books. Unlike stockbrokers, engineers don't keep secret "black books."

Many of our individual files are rarely salvaged, once an employee leaves. In fact, we've got such a crunch on computers that there's usually not even enough time to do an audit of a person's PC to find critical information.

TTFN

 

[HVACctrl]

Definitely I meant to be friendly.

Also, I must admit that for the sake of conservatism, one must consider it unethical. When in doubt, err on the side of caution.

Ed

 

[MintJulep]

I just looked at my Verizon super pages. There is a little copyright symbol on every page.

So, if you look up a potential vendor in the super pages, talk to him and decide he might be useful, and copy the vendor name and phone number from the super pages to your contact list, Verizon thinks that you have violated their copyright.

Isn't that interesting.

Now suppose you have a meet with the vendor you get a card. You add the e-mail and fax number to the contact list and toss the card in your desk drawer.

Verizon now has a hell of a time proving that you copied the phone number from the super pages and not the card.

Meanwhile, the vendor WANTS you to have this information. In fact, he wants as many people as possible to have this information.

Seems like ownership of basic contact information could be a pretty muddy area.

 

[IRstuff]

The copyright serves to protect Verizon from some other directory provider simply copying their pages and using them as their own. While the copyright can also be used against the user of said directory, dollars to doughnuts, that's not the intent of the copyright protection.

TTFN

 

[HVACctrl]

What are Verizon Superpages?

Ed

 

[MintJulep]

VErizon super pages is a phone directory for commercial businesses. Essentially it's the Yellow Pages without the residential phone listings.

What would be the motivation for some other company to copy a directory and publish as their own? Directory listing is done for a fee. If you simply copy and publish you have no revenue, that doesn't seem like a viable business model to me.

 

[Ashereng]

Regardless, it is still copyright infringement.



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Albert Einstein
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[MintJulep]

I'm not convinced that a list of company names and phone numbers, of companies that paid you to list their names and phone numbers constitutes intellectual property.

 

[HVACctrl]

Back on the Outlook Contacts. I think it could be unethical if its something you don't ordinarily have access to. But with everyday access, it seems no big deal.

Now it might be a little crafty and opportunistic, but not necessarily unethical.

Ed

 

[josephv]

Hello all,

It seems unethical to me, here is a line from the Professional Engineers of Ontario Code of Ethics:

3. A practitioner shall act in professional engineering matters for each employer as a faithful agent or trustee and shall regard as confidential information obtained by the practitioner as to the business affairs, technical methods or processes of an employer and avoid or disclose a conflict of interest that might influence the practitioner's actions or judgment.

Another way at looking at this problem is that it would be unethical to share this information with people outside the company. So if you are leaving the company this is kind of the same thing, you are no longer with the company and should not have access to this information.

Having said this, I am sure many successful entrepreneurs have done this, but then again they are not exactly known for their ethics.

Final note, if you signed a piece of paper that prohibits you from doing this, then it is illegal.


Joseph

 

[HgTX]

I'd do what the original poster proposes in a heartbeat, if I'm understanding correctly. Not only is a lot of that info already stored on my personal cell phone (I don't like the company phones), but I've created quite a few of my own directories that no one here uses but me, and some of the contacts from the agency address book are copied over in "my" directories as well for my convenience. I would have no qualms whatsoever about printing out those directories or importing them to another format.

In fact, now that I think about it, I helped a manager do exactly that a couple of years ago when he retired and went into consulting. We got all his directories converted to files he'd be able to open later without access to this mail system. He didn't copy the central database wholesale, but you can bet that the contacts he thought he'd want to deal with later had been copied over into the personal directories he was taking with him. No one thought a thing of it.

Hg

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[MedicineEng]

As defended here by some, I would copy the ones that I personally involved into getting them. This is the same with our Internet Favorites.
For my work I spend some time in Internet (specially in Eng-Tips) consulting websites of manufacturers, technical articles, governing bodies, etc. in order to no "reinvent the wheel". Is there any doubt that in the day that I leave I will take all the Favorites list with me? This list meant hours and hours in the net to weed off sites that were not interesting or had wrong information.
Of course I will leave a copy with my company.
I don't see how this is different from the issue of the contacts.
Lets us know which was your decision.

 

[electricpete]

I haven't read all the intricate ethical analysis. But I have to say that I agree with TheTick.

If I can easily grab it without fear of someone seeing, I would grab it. Then later I can sort out how my conscience feels about it and what I am comfortable doing with the list. At least at that point I still I have the choice. If I didn't get it when I had the chance, then I have no more choices.

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[HVACctrl]

What if some of those contacts were vendors who might supply you with some products or services and the relationship had no effect on your old company? WOuld it be OK then? Would you then have to weed through all the contacts and only copy those that would have no effect on you old company? Who would be qualified to make the determination as to the effect on the old company?

I say copying the contacts is fine.

Ed