Counter-offer 18

[AutoXer]

I know this guy... who knows this girl... She has worked for her current employer for 10yrs and pulls 82K/yr. She accepted an offer from another company for 87K/yr. Before her 2 week notice was up, her boss called her into his office. "Would you mind telling me what your offer was", he asked. She didn't want them to counter offer, so she lied and said 94K/yr. To her surprise, they countered with 97K/yr.

First off, good for her! Now, what does she do? Thoughts?

 

[ChrisConley]

If not are they just offering you what you walked out on weeks ago?

Weeks ago? It's been 4 years

 

[jistre]

They're hoping you've forgotten the bitter taste of bile?

 

[jmw]

If she was prepared to leave a 10 year job at $82k for a mere $5k increase it wasn't the money she was leaving for.
She needs to be upfront with her original boss and explain that she wasn't leaving for the money (but stay with the $94k for the moment).
If this is a resolvable problem, then think carefully about staying but think carefully about what salary she should stay for.
$97k sounds like an impulse that could haunt both players. But get the problem resolved and stay for $87-90k then the boss will feel real happy and hre will feel obligated and not blackmailed.
There is always a problem how to evaluate a counter offer. Is it impulse to be regretted later? Is it a fair reflection of what the job is worth to them? What is a fair rate for the job? Do they just want to keep you while they look for someone else? Will they want their moneys worth back again? how will you fare in future years, will they claw it back year by year?

Bluff called, play the cards out.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[mshimko]

Be upfront, honest, and ethical.

If the reason for changing companies was primarily salary in the first place, then she should have asked for a raise.

If the current company won't give a person a raise until they are walking out the door, I'd say "too little too late". While this is a common attitude company managers, it just doesn't sit well with me (why reward the folks who try to leave, as opposed to the folks who are loyal, so-to-speak).

If you already negotiated and accepted an offer at another company, I don't consider it ethical to withdraw you acceptance, unless something extreme happened.

 

[ajack1]

If she was working out her notice I would assume she had said to her future employer that she will start on a certain date and accepted their offer, if she accepts the counter offer she will have lied to them.

If she accepts the new counter offer she will have done so having lied about the original offer.

I would guess that if neither company would view her very highly if they knew the truth and if they find out it could come back to bite her. Whilst choosing to live by the sword and die by the sword might bring short term or even long term gain it is not a good way to do business.

Personally I would be honest and true to my word and treat the company in the same way as I would want them to treat me.

 

[MedicineEng]

The salary difference now is 10k (approx.11.4% above her offer in the new job). Personally I don't like coutner-offers as I have the perception that sooner or later you pay it with interest. Either way, I think that if she didn't accept the other offer, maybe there is room for negotiation. Tell them that she has a counter offer, that she is not willing to stay in thw current company but the gap is quite wide and what can the new company do about it.One negotiation tactic that has worked for me is to start in a lower salary and after 3 or 6 months being raised to the salary level that I ask for. In my current job, they even raised me the salary after 2 months when the agreement was only after 3 months. It gives time for a person show some work and the manager is more open to raise after than upfront. Of course, this has to be written in the contract. In my previous agreements (that worked out well) I was raised between 8-10% in this extraordinary increase.
good luck and let us know how it went.

 

[jmw]

I take note of the last three posts and they say it clear; the game of offer and counter offer is not a nice one and can end in tears.

I see my post implies that the counter offer should be considered and it shouldn't. I have said as much in other threads but didn't say it here.

Well, I guess I got sidetracked by the reason for changing jobs after 10 years for such a small raise.

So no, I don't advocate taking the counter offer but having received such a good counter offer the employer does deserve to know the real reason for leaving (unless he's it, in which case, it won't do any good saying it.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[cksh]

I read the same thing bridgebuster.

You should never, ever take a counter. The same reason you are leaving will most likely still be there down the road.

Was that your raise for the next few years? Might be.

Everyone will find out since you most likely mentioned it to a few people. Even friends talk and might let something slip unintentionally. It will never be the same.

Also, you have just shown you are disloyal. If you accept, they will be holding all the cards. You have nothing to negotiate with if things turn bad in a few months, or you realize that the person they just hired, and you are training, is your replacement.

I have never taken one. I don't even let it get that far anymore. They start to say "is there anything..." No!

Occasionally I have quit over money. But even if they would of countered with more I would say no. Guaranteed that if the company needs to downsize you are the first they are gonna look at.

 

[MedicineEng]

The side effects of accepting the coutner offer are well known and were already widely discussed here, but we cannot forget that 11.4% salary difference is way to much to be ignored (at least in my standards). What I suggested was to try to negotiate with the new company, not with the current one. Eventually she might go half way and then the difference might be neglectible. Other thing that we are not discussing is other benefits (insurances, vacation time, working hours, etc. ). I am assuming that all the rest is similar and only the salary is in stake here.
Be honest to your future employer and tell him:"My actual company counter offered 97k. I want to accept your offer but the gap is quite big. Can we reach an agreement say, 90k now and a raise to 97k in 6 months time?"

 

[spongebob007]

Accepting a counter offer is a bad thing to do under any circumstance. Let me tell you about the only professional job I was ever fired from. It was my second job out of college. I had a buddy who knew of a job opening where he worked. So I interviewed, got, and accepted the new job. I had only been with the current employer for about six months and I was in the middle of a major project. I gave my notice and thought that was the end of it. Several days later my boss called me into his office and made a counter offer. I accepted the counter offer and told the other company I wasn't taking the job.

Fast forward three months. The DAY AFTER that major project I mentioned before was finished, my boss came to my desk and said "Bob, I need to speak to you" I could tell by his tone and the look on his face that it wasn't going to be good. We went in his office and he closed the door. I nearly fell over when he laid it on me. I was being accused of stealing from the company. When I asked who had made the accusation, he would not divulge their name or even what led them/him to think I was stealing. He had absolutely no proof that I had even done anything wrong. I tried to talk my way out of it, but it went nowhere. Without any idea of why I was being accused or even being given a chance to clear my name I was fired on the spot. I packed up my belongings and security escorted me out of the building. The whole thing reeked of BS to me. I filed a claim for unemployment but it was denied since I didn't get a pink slip. I threatened to sue my former employer and then all of a sudden the decided to pay my unemployment claim.

You see the thing you need to realize is that your boss is NOT your friend. He is acting in his own/the company's' best interest. When you give your notice, you are branded as "not being a team player". As engineers we play key roles in an organization, and when one of us leaves, it can leave the boss high and dry when there is a lot of work to be done, and ultimately it is his head that will roll if the project you are leaving behind is screwed up due to your departure. He's not making a counter offer out of the goodness of his heart, he's stalling your departure until he can find a more convenient time to can you.

Maybe you won't be fired like I was, but I know several others who played the counter offer game and the stigma haunted them for years.

On another level, unless money was the ONLY issue for leaving, the things you don't like about your job aren't going to magically go away once you accept the counter offer.

 

[KENAT]

Spongebob, Excellent example of what a lot of us meant by it coming back to bite you.



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Gymmeh]

I have heard of the same thing where I work if you take the counter offer. Its and un-written company policy for them to start looking for your replacment (without u knowing), and you have a police escort waiting for you the next friday.

 

[AutoXer]

She took the counter offer. She said that money was her only reason to leave.

 

[monkeydog]

So, why did she not want them to counter-offer?

 

[jmw]

How can it have been "just the money"?

She was on $82k and was going to give up that and the 10 years "tenure" and accumulated benefits for $87k.

The $87k would stay that for a year but presumably the $82k would have been subject to a 3-4% increase during the year.
That leaves a marginal increase and a very short term gain unless there were some other benefits or expectations as well since it is not going to be much more than a year before she is back to par with her old job.

Changing jobs always requires some consideration and it also means understanding your own motives and objectives. If you are going to go for the money then you should have some understanding of what is an acceptable increase, not just for now but for the future.

We all know that the longer you stay in one job, that year-on-year you slip toward the bottom quartile salary and rewards for the job.

Usually we should expect better rewards/career progression to come from:
[ul][li]A good pay rise for the same job with current employer. A virtual impossibility except using the counter-offer scenario. Very very risky.[/li]
[li] Change jobs (like for like) for 10% or better plus no loss of benefits (trade losses for better wages);very safe and that 10 years service can be used to demonstrate stability and loyalty (that you are a long term patsy and they will greatly benefit in the future when they get you back down in the lowest quartile again; i.e. you are a good long term risk).[/li]
[li]internal promotion for whatever you can get. Usually this is not much and these days it is often just more responsibility and more workload for a nominal amount extra and sometimes, with "restructuring" it is more jobs for the same money and no apparent promotion as you take on the jobs of those "let go" in addition to your own. A very poor outcome.[/li]
[li] The best of all, and used frequently enough is how bad managers get to be even worse CEOs before being retired with Golden handshakes; promotion to a new employer for wheelbarrows full of the stuff.[/li][/ul]

So, is she being honest with herself? Was it really the money or was she dissatisfied with something and has just assumed it was the money without really analysing her dissatisfaction?

If it was just the money then it was not a very successful exercise to go out and get an $87k replacement for $82k plus 3-4% annual adjustment. One or two years and she is no better off.

Of all counter-offer acceptance scenarios, this is one with more than the usual risks.

Here, the employer will already be thinking $82k to $97k is a big step and he may be regretting that, he will certainly be looking for his money's worth and he may even be looking for a way out.

But the truth has a nasty way of surfacing when you don't want it to.
I know one guy who was offered a new job with his original employer, then found a much better job elsewhere and grabbed it. He hadn't even started on the new job with the old employer. However, the old employer was so upset by this that he immediately indulged in some character assassination and wrote to the new employer.

So just consider that prospective employer and old employer could communicate with each other and how it would be if in this case the employer discovers he has been finessed.






JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[GTstartup]

"Finessed" is one way to put it.

Bottom line is she lied and ended up with a raise. If I were her boss I would be pissed if I found out.

 

[Twoballcane]

"However, the old employer was so upset by this that he immediately indulged in some character assassination and wrote to the new employer."

I often think about this when I leave a company, but wont the new company see this as like an ex girl/boy friend mouthing off? If the employee is so bad, wouldent the old manager try to get rid of him by palming him off to sombody else?


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[monkeydog]

Hmmm,
The way this played out - lied about the offer, and then accepting a counter-offer based on the lie - moves from "How to Improve Myself" to "Ethics"

 

[AutoXer]

"The way this played out - lied about the offer, and then accepting a counter-offer based on the lie - moves from "How to Improve Myself" to "Ethics""

Question: If one day prior to her handing in her two weeks notice, she asked her boss "how much are you willing to pay me to keep me employed here" and her boss replied "your current salary", is her boss lying / being ethical?

 

[Twoballcane]

So wait a second, who is more un-ethical, the employee who had to lie to get a bigger salary or the boss who is paying slave wages?

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."