Current Engineering Salaries 8

[southbeach]

Hi to all,

I am curious for those that are liscensed engineers, what is the salary like?

Is it true, skilled tradesmen earn more than an engineer?

If so, that is strange considering an engineer would more then likely be the project leader with skilled trades people reporting to them.

All comments are much appreciated

 

[SomptingGuy]

Unions? I really don't understand how they interact with professional engineers. At what point in your career do you switch from non-management to management? In my experience it happens gradually, there's no point where you suddenly switch from employee to employer.

 

[ScottyUK]

For a professional engineer, the professional bodies for the respective disciplines could collectively do much more to represent the interests of their members. Perhaps if the IEE, IMechE, ICE weren't such lame ducks there would be less talk of unions among UK engineers? My professional body, the IEE (or as they have now styled it, the IET), does little for me except publish some interesting journals and provide a useful source of job adverts, and allow me a route to professional registration. It does little to promote among engineers the professional recognition accorded to the medical and legal professions, or if it is does do anything then has succeeded only in failing for the period I have been a member.

In the absence of a professional body to represent me I consider membership of a union from time to time, but shy away from the militant ones. Progress is best made through dialog, not picket lines.

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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[Ussuri]

Scotty

Interesting to see that its not just my Institution (ICE) that appears useless, and the members of the other institutions are equally disgruntled. I too get some journals and job adverts but thats about it for my 210 quid annual subs.

 

[ScottyUK]

You do not want to get me started on 'The IET'! Enough to say that recent events are a disgrace and those responsible should be utterly ashamed of their recent 'victory' in pushing through the merger with the IIE. The merger serves only to weaken the status of the professional engineer by further blurring the line between engineer and technician.
A merger amongst peers IEE/IMechE/ICE, maybe IChemE too, would probably had my support, but... I said not to get me started!!



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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[moltenmetal]

The doctors in Canada have this one figured out. They have a union but don't call it one. It negotiates on their behalf with their de-facto employer, the provincial medical insurance program. And it's startlingly successful at limiting supply, retaining complete control over licensure to ensure competence, creating an artificial shortage and commanding excellent salaries as a consequence!

We engineers no longer understand the real meaning and intent of belonging to a self-regulating profession. We accept career-terminating responsibility for our professional activities, and agree to be bound by a code of ethical conduct. We also agree to police our own members and regulate our own licensure process to maintain competence, entirely at our own cost. We do these things for protection of the public, because society acknowledges that nobody other than another professional engineer is qualified to judge the professional practice of another professional engineer.

IN RETURN, we are to be granted exclusive right to practice in a particular area by virtue of our license, plus CONTROL over access to that license!

We've failed at this task, and hence we command salaries no better and in a great many cases POORER than those commanded by non-professionals who agree to and pay for NONE of these public protection measures!

The saddest part in all of this is that by acting as prima-donnas too noble to make our licensure system work for our OWN benefit, we've also put the public at risk by defeating the entire function of licensure in the first place!

 

[Ashereng]

The engineering boards do not serve engineers - they serve the public. Hence, they have the public's interest first, not ours.

If engineers want a "engineering society" that serves engineers, then we need to start one.

I heard someone mention that Ontarion started one - but he didn't say how effective it is.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[niallmacdubhghaill]

I would 2nd (or 3rd) the sentiments of both ScottyUK (Electrical)& Ussuri (Civil/Environme. I am a member of the IEI and the IChemE and again, I feel I get very little other that journals and job adverts.

I agree with what moltenmetal (Chemical) had to say.

I wonder how difficult it would be to have an "engineering society" that serves engineers (a la Ashereng (Petroleum)) but one thing that I think would be useful would a society that trancends national boundaries. Im speaking here particularly between EU, UK and US. I know in the EU we have EurEng and the CEng but that there is a limited amount of transferability to the US, even though the schools from which we graduated are recognised there.

I think a society like this would go some way to addressing scenarios like having engineers (often highly qualified)working in low paid, menial jobs in countries where they move to.

 

[GregLocock]

So, what do you want this society to do?

Which of the following is good, bad or indifferent?

1) Technical dissemination (eg SAE papers)

2) Develop national or international standards (eg IEE)

3) Training courses in new technologies

4) Lobbying governments to get legal protection for engineer as a term, and then smite the unworthy.

5) Checking that you have done your PDH every year

6) Lobbying universities to control the supply of new graduates

7) Printing nice magazines

8) Encouraging local branches

9) Having a club-like HQ in London mere minutes from the centre of town. Must be a nice place to work...

10) Assess and control the flow from EITs (or equivalent) into fully fledged engineer status.

11) Ensure parity of qualifications and reciprocity worldwide.

add some more - need to give employers a hard time as well.

Oddly the only magazine I want from the IMechE, they won't give me. If you think that I strongly resent this then you'd be absolutely right.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[niallmacdubhghaill]

All of the above sounds good to me. I think this is a topic that could be debated for a long time. I think every contributor to this thread has more or less agreed that engineers are under appreciated and under compensated (generally speaking) for our contribution to industry. I also think that the ideal society would be more pro-active and vocal in informing the general public regarding issues such as alternatives to fossil fuels and other topical/controversial issues that would come under our areas of expertise.

 

[GregLocock]

Well actually I am a nasty old free market capitalist, and I strongly suspect that on average engineers are paid about right. If we could artificially create a cartel then our wages would rise.

Incidentally I'd regard at least half of that list I put up as irrelevant or worse.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[niallmacdubhghaill]

Who isn't a "free market capitalist". The problem is that we do not in general work in a "free market". As long as there are unions, this debate will exist. I would not say that it should be requisate that an engineer should be a member of the above society, I think that it could be good if they were......

1) Technical dissemination (eg SAE papers) GOOD

2) Develop national or international standards (eg IEE)GOOD

3) Training courses in new technologies GOOD (NOT COMPULSORY)

4) Lobbying governments to get legal protection for engineer as a term, and then smite the unworthy. NOT A BAD IDEA

5) Checking that you have done your PDH every year PDH?? IS THIS LIKE CPD (continuing professional development)

6) Lobbying universities to control the supply of new graduates NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN HERE

7) Printing nice magazines USEFUL, PARTICULARLY IF THERE ARE GOOD ARTICLES IN THEM AND LOTS OF JOB ADVERTS

8) Encouraging local branches AGAIN NOT ESSENTIAL, BUT A NICE IDEA

9) Having a club-like HQ in London mere minutes from the centre of town. Must be a nice place to work... IRRELEVENT

10) Assess and control the flow from EITs (or equivalent) into fully fledged engineer status. EIT? SOME KIND OF TECHNICIAN? PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA IF SO

11) Ensure parity of qualifications and reciprocity worldwide. GOOD IDEA, I STRONGLY ADVOCATE THIS, WITH A VIEW TO INCREASING MOBILITY

 

[CanuckMiner]

Ashereng,

It was I who mentioned the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers (

http://www.ospe.on.ca),

an advocacy group ostensibly promoting the virtues and benefits of engineers to the public at large. I did not mention the effectiveness of the group as I am no longer a member. I am no longer a member because for the first couple of years, the only thing they promoted was cheaper home and auto insurance as a benefit of being a member of their organization. This struck a nerve with me as being somewhat unprofessional so I did not renew my membership. I would have preferred the approach to be, "Here's what we are doing to promote the engineering profession", rather than the "Here's what we can do for you."

I still check in on their website from time to time to see if they have made any progress. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but the impression I get is that there is a lot of talk but not much action. Maybe the organization will grow with time; it is less than ten years old. However, for now I will sit back and watch.

Cheers,
CanuckMiner, P.Eng.

 

[Ashereng]

So, another association that takes in money, but returns very little.



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Albert Einstein
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[Argan]

To just keep sturring the muck on the union vs non-union debate I offer the following points.

With some background research and the book "Good to Great" by Jim Colins unions killed the steel manufature industry in the US. Compair and contrast Bethlahelm Steel and Nucore Steel. Then apply compeditive pressure from Nippon Steel. My conclusion is that unions added no value to the steel manufacturing process, and because of that Japan was able to do bussiness-dumping with Nippon Steel. Therefore Nippon Steel take out the vast majority of that industry in the US.

Also, when looking at unions lets look at the two largest and most influencial in the US, the Teachers Union and the Dock Worker Union. In my mind these are nothing more than glorified political bodies that are border line pure government corruption.

As a recent graduate I choose engineering because there was no union. And to finish this rant post against unions Gen. MacArther said, "Your only security is the ability to preform."

 

[GregLocock]

Man, I hope you check your calculations more carefully than your speling.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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[Quantum50]

And, there is an engineers union. It's a component of the machinist union and present at Boeing.

 

[DonMcC]

I spent the last ten years in the manufacturing industry as an electrical engineer. In my region, manufacturing has been declining, making it difficult to find stable employment. I thought that if I got my PE license, it would be easier to find work, but that hasn't been true, mostly because the license is irrelevant in industry. I wanted to switch fields and work in the construction industries, but lacked experience. Last year, I became an apprentice with the IBEW, the electrical workers union. What I found is that the work is very rewarding, although, of course, somewhat difficult. The people are hardworking, and very knowledgable about their trade, both with the hard skills, and the issues that surround the building industry.

The union dues aren't that significant, considering the exorbitant fees I had been paying my national society, my state board, and my technical society. What I gain is an organization that actually understands its members. The IBEW knows that its future is tied to the financial stability of the various electrical contractors. They don't go on strike, they have a pension plan, and they are able to offer me a future without worrying about offshoring. The state licensing of electricians in my area is enforced much more stringently than it is with engineers, which certainly helps their future.

My pay rate isn't yet what I had been making as an engineer; I am still an apprentice. However, I know that I have a much better future now thanks to the union. I certainly wish all engineers the best, but for me the future was bleak: outsourcing, company closings, age discrimination, an irrelevant licensing system, and obsolete engineering organizations all added up to a profession that never failed to let me down.

 

[ScottyUK]

Man, I hope you check your calculations more carefully than your speling.

You too!


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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[GregLocock]

Oh Scotty, some days it is just like shooting fish in a barrel.



Cheers

Greg Locock

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[rioghalmo]

What about refinery operators? They get paid $27/Hr. plus overtime and bonuses. Not to mention great benefits-and their job isn't really that difficult. They just have to work shift hours for a large part of their career.