Do engineers make good managers? 13

[jmw]

There is the dithering method of decision taking which seems to find favour with some managers which is to wait until all the options are closed off except one and then that is the one finally decided on with the get-out clause of "There was nothing else I could do".
Sometimes, making a decision with limited information is preferable to no decision at all.

And of course, "No good deed goes unpunished" could well be rewritten as "No good decision goes unpunished."



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[lacajun]

Sometimes you have to make decisions on insufficient data to improve a bad situation. Those are hard decisions and if they were easy decisions, more people would engage those situations rather than run from them.

I've endured the consequences of my decisions deemed wrong by management. They were right for the company but wrong for building fiefdoms. Somehow my actions in looking out for the company were, and continue to be, deemed inappropriate by some people.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[ScottyUK]

Pamela,

You have just described my week.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[patprimmer]

Despite my previous post, in the real world, almost all decisions are made with some but not all data really required. The real skill is deciding when to make the decision. ie balancing the cost of delay vs the cost of getting it wrong, vs the odds against getting it wrong.

Regards
Pat
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[tz101]

"It's much easier to teach a good engineer the soft skills they need to have to become an effective manager than it is to teach a business major the technical skills they would need to become an effective engineer. Companies like Caterpillar operate using this principal, which is one of the reasons why they are such a successful company. They understand.

Maui"

I have worked at Caterpillar for 5 years and this is only slightly true. The location I was at was run by arrogant engineers, but the people skills were not there. Most were only trying to make the biggest impression on their immediate supervisor to move up the ladder as quickly as possible. This usually involved ignoring the day to day workers below and their needs, while padding their own resumes with industry catch phrases and technical sounding fluff. If you want to call that management, feel free, but I would not go back to Caterpillar if you begged me to.

 

[lacajun]

Pat, sometimes in my world, there has been no time to do much thinking beyond making a decision and running with it. When the crappola has hit the fan or is near hitting it, you make the best decision possible to mitigate a process disaster and leave the shouting for post-dust settling.

tz101, I've known some who contracted with Caterpillar, who had much the same thought. When they told me some of what they were trying to do one could only shake their head and move on to the next topic. A retired engineer recently said Corporate America began to change in 1984 by his observations. About that time, people became more interested in politicin' to climb the ladder than doing a good job. Their moral values reflected badly on them and betrayed their real motivation, which was more money and power. I think some are still interested in doing a good job but I wouldn't know how to do a SWAG of how many are.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[peppinu]

tZ101,
I tend to disagree with you. Soft skills are the hardest to teach and the most difficult for people to change. Why would you need to teach business major engineering skills. The role of a manager is to manage resources as Pat said, these being human assets or intellectual knowledge.

 

[tz101]

Peppinu, you disagree with which part of what I stated about Caterpillar? I only stated factual observations from my time spent with their company. I did not say anything about teaching soft skills versus managerial skills. I only stated that the "managers" I worked under at Caterpillar were engineers who were outside of their realm.

Maui had earlier said that Caterpillar is successful because they take engineers and make them managers, and I differ from that opinion, having worked under their dysfunctional system.

Caterpillar is not a very good organization to work for, unless you are a production worker on the shop floor. Everyone is a number and can be easily replaced in their eyes. No caring or real development of people that I could see. Only stating the truth.

 

[peppinu]

Tz,
Please accept my appologies, I did not realise taht it was a quote. I agree with you.
I do not agree as you said that an engineer automaticaly makes a good manager because he/she has been managing projects and has been doing it for some time.
A manager is a manger if they manage people. Some managers are even better because they have the charisma of leadership. A good manger can manage in whatever field. As I said earlier if an engineer is in a managing role he/she needs to spend time managing rather that doing engineering work. They go in opposite directions.

 

[Maui]

I have not worked for Caterpillar, but was offered a job there many years ago for a mid-management level position. Although I declined their job offer, it was obvious that they had a preference for promoting people internally when possible. And the individual who would have been my boss stated during the interview that their goal is to teach their engineering professionals the soft skills needed to become effective managers before promoting them to these positions, rather teaching business majors the engineering concepts they would need to understand to effectively guide their engineers. This does not mean, however, that it always works out as planned, as stated above by tz101.

tz101, what exactly were the backgrounds of the managers that you referred to above? What type of business training (if any) did they have?

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[tz101]

I'm going to guess that maybe the corporate goal at Caterpillar is to train engineers in managerial skills. It just did not work out in practice at the facility I worked at. The thing I saw there is that there were always new directives coming down from upper managers, but personal accountability seemed to be lacking in making sure they were followed through on. Like I said, the people skills lacked and engineering non-managers were just "another brick in the wall".

Caterpillar was always big on the latest fads like ISO9000, lean manufacturing, etc. They also provided top notch equipment and tools. We always had excellent training in software, hardware, and techniques. Where they were sorely lacking was in the people managing department. It was never stated, but I always got the feeling that upper management felt that once they provided the facility and tools, basically any "cog" could be plugged into that system and be successful. No caring or support, just a lot of being talked down to by proud engineers who had been made "managers." Overall, a cold and demanding environment.

Maui, my guess to the managers I worked under is that they all had BSME, maybe Masters degrees in some engineering discipline. I saw them going about the business at hand of making sure departmental financial goals were met, and that various projects were being completed on a timely basis. As far as the business training, it appeared like they had a good grasp on filling out spreadsheets, flowcharts and meeting aforementioned goals, but what is management if you have no people skills or cannot develop the workers underneath you?

Don't want to sound like sour grapes, but you asked so I am answering.

 

[SomptingGuy]

A former colleague and current friend had great experiences with Caterpillar. They paid for him to spend several months doing interesting and clever stuff. No goals, no targets, no plans, no reports, just be here and be clever using our equipment. They repeated this the following year.

- Steve

 

[Twoballcane]

Why do we beat ourselves by stereotyping our profession with themes like this? Anybody with an aptitude of managerial skills, in any profession, can be a manager. Typically one’s passion will accumulate the skills needed to do the job. This is a personal choice and not based on stereo typical views of one’s profession. However, I do agree with Maui that (in my interpretation) that the manager should have some background in the area that s/he is managing. Otherwise, making decisions may be difficult without the right knowledge.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
“Luck is where preparation meets opportunity”

 

[Maui]

Twoballcane, yes, you did interpret it correctly.

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[patsweet]

This is a really interesting topic to me. I've been thinking a lot about where I'd like my career to go, and I really think I'd like to take on a management or leadership role in the future.

I would tend to agree with the general consensus that being an engineer doesn't necessarily make you good or bad at being a manager. Engineering and management are different skill sets. That being said, I think it's important for a manager to have experience in the "front line", so to speak, to be able to manage effectively. So, if you take an experienced engineer, and train them in leadership and administration, you've got a deadly candidate for an engineering manager or director.

I ready a few years back in Maclean's Magazine that 55 of Canada's top 100 CEOs were engineers by training. So, do engineers make good managers? No - not on their own. But with the right training, they can make fantastic managers.

 

[KENAT]

While most skills can be improved by education/training/practice...

I can't help thinking there are some traits that good managers/leaders have which perhaps can't simply be taught.

So, I find even the suggestion that 'any experienced Engineer' can be trained to be a great engineering manager or director just a little concerning.

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[lacajun]

I humbled myself today and apologized to a man I am training to help me, who I obviously rude to earlier this week. And what do I find active again today... The timing of life doesn't get any better, eh?

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[AndrewHerbst]

Engineers don't automatically make good managers, nor are they automatically bad at it either. It may be true that the studying of engineering subjects with the emphasis on math and physical science, doesn't give the graduating engineer any particular skill in managing other engineers. It does help him manage the quality of work, although some behavioral science would probably help to get it done in a timely fashion too. But there is also the attitude of the engineering manager - does he care about people? Does he want to help them succeed? Does he give credit where it is due? Or is he just interested in designing and building something on time and on budget that works?

When managing "knowledge workers" like engineers, we need to be aware that the better ones are motivated by achievement, recognition, career advancement, - i.e. the higher levels of Maslow's triangle. The success of the project is their success too, and it will be on their resume for years to come.

But are they given recognition for good work along the way to keep them motivated? The manager needs them productive, and accurate. Quality and quantity, and on-time to keep others synchronized. This is what should be expected (why thank them when that's what we pay them for?), but since it is difficult to achieve, as a manager you should provide recognition to the appropriate person(s) every mini-milestone that is actually achieved. If the wrong people get the recognition, this can make matters worse so be careful. If you find this task enjoyable, you might make a good manager (there is obviously more to the job than just this, but this will help).

 

[TomDOT]

The biggest flaw I have seen with Engineer managers is a tendency to either extensively micromanage, or be completely hands-off. Sometimes in the same manager.