Do I deserve a pay rise? Should I ask for one? If so, how? Thanks

[Cutiee]

Hello, it’s me again, here, asking questions, anyway, let’s get to it.

I graduated last summer and got a job as an E&I engineer in this company last November, so literally I have been working for this company for a year now, I get paid well lets say less than £20k a year as a graduate.

This is my first permanent job, I have no clue how much I should be paid and if I should get a pay rise after a year’s working experience.

Well my company has the reputation of under paying people, therefore a lot of people have left the company especially in my department, even my department manager is leaving end of the month =/

So I feel a bit shy to ask for a pay rise, I work very hard, yet ask lots of questions (don’t know if its good or bad)

I don’t want to find another job yet, I would like to stay in the company and learn. And I really wouldn’t threat my company to give me pay rise or I will leave, because I really don’t want to leave.

Any suggestions?

Thanks


Cuttie

 

[Cutiee]

One of the E&I engineers’ last day today (not the manager, he is leaving end of the month), it’s sad to see him go, I mean it, he has always looked after me as well, he is one of the longest-served employee here, and very much respected. He gave me a hug, I felt special, almost cried.

Well that’s a bit off the topic. I haven’t asked for a pay rise yet, just want to wait till end of the month, see if I will get one.

Good weekend x


Cuttie

 

[jmw]

I haven't asked for a pay rise yet, just want to wait till end of the month, see if I will get one.

Yes, I should wait.
You started this thread on the 4th November, so why not wait till the end of the month?

Allow them a fait accomplis, why not?

At least you will have the pleasure of seeing your boss giving a great Gallic shoulder shrug.

Let's see; what are the options?
(a) He has absolute discretion and unlimited resources
(b) He has a pot of money allocated to him by the Finance director and its up to him to make the best use of it.

If it is (a) then sure, wait and see.
However, if it is (b) you are going to be desperately disappointed.

Let me explain again.
If he only has a meagre pot of money to share out, he will have tried to be a Solomon about how to share it out except that he will share it based on what is best for him, not his employees.

The trick for him is to know who is going to sit quietly like a mouse and take whatever comes their way and who is going to make his life a misery either directly or by voting with their feet and getting him in bad with HR and the upper management.

He is human, after all.
Why give a big award to someone who wouldn't say boo to a goose, or is unlikely to be able to easily get another job when he knows there are some others, less deserving, maybe, but with a greater nuisance value and where the money may do him the most good.

If he has you pegged as a Mouse, that's it, only a few crumbs of cheese for you.

After the event all he can say is (and I think they are given a script by HR for this annual pageant):
[ul][li]that it is out of his hands now[/li]
[li] he did his best and as a matter of fact he was able to give you a little bit more than some others already (but don't let anyone know he has looked after you or you'll get him in trouble)[/li]
[li]times are hard, there is a recession/depression, we're all having to tighten our belts, some divisions didn't get an award at all [/li]
[li]its more than his jobs worth[/li]
[li]he has no control over the total amount, just its distribution[/li]
[li]he is far from happy with his own award[/li][/ul]
Blah blah blah.
He may then get tough and say things like there are plenty of people without jobs who'd love to be where you are now and on.

If you want cliches, pay awards time is when to look for them.

Now, if you really want to get a pay rise the time to speak is now, before its all finally divided up and gone. You have to, by asking in advance, show that this could become an issue.
If he thinks you are going to
[ul][li]leave[/li]
[li]become unhappy and unproductive[/li]
[li] make his life a misery[/li]
[li]become an activist and stir everyone up[/i][/ul]
He needs to know now while he can do something about it, not later once the deed is done.

Of your two options you lose nothing on either option by asking now, by signalling him that you expect a good award. Give him a chance. If you don't ask, you won't get.

On the other hand, by waiting, you eliminate one of your options and risk witnessing the great crocodile tears impersonation.




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Cutiee]

I had my appraisal today with the (leaving) manager and the new manager (who used to be a junior E&I engineer, by default he got promoted to manager position as well as a senior engineer, because he is the longest served employee in my department: almost 2 years…), they both told me appraisal is not the place to ask for a pay raise, that’s is why they put appraisal time in November, because pay review is in April… even if I ask, I wouldn’t get anything… but I’m going to ask…

I feel its really unfair, because I just found out a colleague’s salary, I know its not my businese, but this E&I engineer once confessed to someone that he’s used to be a builder before came to England from Africa, and he asks me questions quite often, because he didn’t even have much basic computer&microsoft package skills, but he’s getting paid 10k more than me, he was here as a contractor, then he applied for the permanent position after worked here for 3 months, he started about the same time as me, now 5 of his family members have moved to england, I was wondering how he could afford to look after a non-working wife and 3 kids with little wage like me getting…

It just annoys me to find out he got paid so much more I have worked on 3 projects independantly, and he hasn’t even done one small project that he took over from another contractor! Even my manager thinks he’s not that “helpful”. Well I guess I can’t really say that to my boss when I ask for a raise, but it’s just unfair! I also found out that I’m getting paid similar as the apprentice. I’m really not the greedy time, but all those unfairness and discouragement make me losing motivation at working …


Cuttie

 

[Cutiee]

Sorry I meant "I'm not the greedy type" not "time"

Cuttie

 

[jmw]

If you've been there nearly a year then one has to ask, what did you get last April?

No, let me guess, you hadn't been there long enough to warrant a rise. But you probably didn't know to ask then and didn't even know an award had occurred.

But, if you started on a trial period at a basic salary and it didn't get increased then, you should hope to get one somewhere in the 18 months between starting and the normal pay review e.g. on your anniversary date. But that date is now and they are putting you off.

You might ask "why do they do that?" You should get the right money from the start; if you are no good, they aren't going to keep you on so what is their problem? But if they do keep you on, then they've got you trapped on a low salary and they can find all sorts of excuses not to give you a raise.

Of course, for a first job you are in a buyer's market. Experience and confidence put you in a seller's market. That first year is a very significant difference for you between being an unknown both to your employer and to yourself to someone who knows what they can do.

Review/appraisal time is exactly when you need to discuss this if you never discuss it any other time. You must always discuss this early enough for it to have some chance of influencing the outcome. April is too late. How long before April do they decide the budget?

They may say they can't discuss it but really, all they can't do is make a promise. They should listen because one of them has to put forward his forecast for what he thinks he is going to need to spend next year, not just on computers, cars, expense accounts, power heat and light, equipment but also people. How should they know what to ask for if they don't discuss it it?

If not now, when? When is it too late to affect the outcome? get them to tell you when you can discuss it and when it is too late to influence events. Be searching.

Of course, this is about as near a taboo subject as you can find, but just because managers don't like to discuss it there is no reason why you shouldn't put your case and make it plain what your expectations are.

Make them explain very carefully why you didn't get an award last April, and why not on your anniversary date.
Get them to explain how the pay awards are decided.
If they aren't going to put a figure on it now you don't have to either but they have to be made aware that you are not going to sit back and after 18months on a trial persons salary get a standard "cost of living" increase.

If you are beginning to get a sense that you are going to get shafted come April, then get your CV out there and start looking, you have between now and then to get the job offers rolling in.

Oh yes, so someone less experienced than you is getting paid more than you?
Lesson one: life isn't fair but, learn from it.
If people who are less good than you earn more there is a reason, they know how to ask.

Also, you are better off if you can ask from a strong position. Get that CV out there and go to interviews. You can always say no to a job you have been offered but and it getting offers allows you to be bold if you don't find a job you like. If you do, then take it.





JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[HamishMcTavish]

I agree with JMW, you need to know what the ground rules are! They should have been explained to you when you started...

If your manager says that your appraisal is not the time to talk about a pay rise then put a slot in his diary for the following day and (you guessed it!) talk about a pay rise then...for your manager there is no good time so you will have to push yourself forward and tackle the issue. As JMW says be firm to get the info you need to make a decision.

One word of caution, by all means get your CV out (always a good idea to see what's out there) and go to interviews but if someone offers you a job (and you use it as leverage in negotiating pay) be prepared for your manager to say ok take it. You have to be mentally prepared to follow through with your ultimatum.

In the meantime, don't let it eat away at you, put in 100% - remember that if you do leave a good reference will stand you in good stead and if you don't burn any bridges you could always return at a later stage (on a higher salary of course! )

Good luck, HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[ScottyUK]

Cuttie,

The more I read about your employer the closer I come to saying 'Find a new job and leave them'. My impression is that you are under-valued, perhaps a little under-remunerated, and in an industry which is short of people that is a short-sighted outlook for an employer. Reading your posts I think you also lack confidence at work although you seem confident enough to talk to us on this site. That's maybe something to be aware of when you go for interviews: confidence counts for a lot. I don't think you will have a problem finding a new job in O&G, especially in Furry Boot Town. After a year you are likely settled and feel fairly comfortable in your current job, and I guess that is the only thing which is keeping you there. Time to move on - learn from the good and the bad where you are, stay on friendly terms with your colleagues, and find a new employer.



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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[Cutiee]

Morning, thanks for the replies

I did get a pay rise last April for £500... My manager told me they try to give everyone a minimum raise, and the "leftover" money will be given to the ones they have "promised".

It’s easier to write than to speak, yes it is true, I don’t feel confident enough to ask for a rise, I somehow feel thankful to him for giving me the job at the first place, this was my first job interview after leaving university, and then I got the job.

I’m always friendly to my colleagues, I keep my feelings to myself and eng-tips forum



Cuttie

 

[ScottyUK]

"...I somehow feel thankful to him for giving me the job at the first place..."

And that is your problem. They had a vacancy to fill, you were a good fit for that vacancy. They want to pay you as the recent graduate with no experience, but you have moved on and are now becoming one of the experienced people. You will have learned much in that first year, percentage-wise you may have learned more this last year than you will in any future year, and you are both more valuable and more marketable. Don't undervalue yourself - companies employ HR departments to undervalue their staff!

Get your head in the recruitment press this weekend and start applying for jobs!


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[jmw]

A comment on what Hamish has said.
I myself don't believe in using a job offer as leverage but as a source of security.
You should expect your company to reward you properly. You may find that saying "I've got this offer, so make me a counter offer." is a poor policy. They won't like being blackmailed. They will get their money back some other way and may even couner offer simply t get you to stay longe enough so they can find another amenable graduate looking for a first job.

On the other hand, if you know you can get other jobs you will have a sense of your value to other people and you should use it as a source of confidence in your dealings with your employer. There is always the chance that you will get a job offer you like and could care less about your current employer.

Do not let feelings for co-workers affect your legitimate concerns for your own future.

Getting that first job is the hardest and often the least rewarded because you are an unknown to the employer and to yourself.
Not any more. 12-18months is a useful period and hear what Scotty UK says.
You are now a marketable commodity and far less of an unknown. You need to make that work for you.

I also agree with Scotty when he says the more he hears the more he wants to say get out of there.

The great thing about Eng-tps and the internet is the access to good advice and good opportunities. I would hate to guess where I could be now if I'd had this sort of experience speaking to me when I was one or two years into my first job.
I know I wouldn't have stayed there eleven years because I liked what I was doing and liked the people, I'd have realised I could equally like doing something else for some one else and like the new colleagues as much as the old.





JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[ykee]

Despite what your managers say, appraisals and raises are linked. Since your managers (and you) are reluctant to talk about this during your appraisal, you could try the following: discuss your contribution to the company, and your level of responsibility during your appraisal. Many companies have pay grades, and the biggest raises come from moving up grades. An apparaisal is a good time to set out goals to move up grades, and a good time to let your managers know that you expect better compensation, let your managers know that you are telling them this so that they can get the $$ allocated in the budget.

Even if your company has no pay grades, they likely still have the same concept, and may be more willing to entertain the idea of a large raise if you can show a clear shift in your responsibilites.

 

[ScottyUK]

jmw,

Are you a resident of this sceptred septic isle too? All this time I hadn't realised. It was the use of 'CV' which gave you away.




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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[jmw]

Hi Scotty,
yes, true, I'm sad to say.

I usually, for our colonial cousin's benefit, try to use the term "resume" though I occasional lapse, but in this case I detected that Cuttie is also a denizen of these blighted lands.

Well, "CV" used to be appropriate but I guess that is another of those Latin terms that Salisbury Council has banned as being discriminatory... in favour of resume? But, no that comes from the French, so what can we call it in English? Anyway, since West Sussex hasn't declared itself on either side in the Latin wars I hopefully won't have a hit squad arriving here to sort me out for racial discrimination.

In my defence I should say that I am a dual National, US and UK (though my US passport is now out of date which will get me a real b*ll***ing from the embassy) - my dad let his passport lapse for 30 years and got the public enemy no 1 treatment when he finally renewed it. UK passports? ... well I could tell some stories about Lunar House.

I did get a pay rise last April for £500... My manager told me they try to give everyone a minimum raise, and the "leftover" money will be given to the ones they have "promised".

Doesn't that say it all.
More honest would have been to say "We try to give every the minimum raise we can get away with" or, more honest still, "We try not to give raises at all." (I worked for a company that blithely told everyone that there would be no raises this year, due to recession., espcially in aerospace etc etc and then sold the aerospace division for £42million and shared the dosh out amongst the shareholders without even a word of thanks to the starving workforce.)

Still £500 is pretty impressive, some manager has stuck his neck on the block to deny that £500 to the shareholders and that's a risky thing to do. Let's see, that's all of £41.66 per month (plus the cost of the NI contributions) even though, after tax it is enough to cover a cup of coffee nearly every day.

Er, and what did I say about "promises" this means they have found some extra for the nuisances, the ones who will have made their lives miserable. Be nice to know the size of the pot this £500 came from and how man it was shared between. Your manager would have you believe he had £1000 for 20 people and you got special treatment.




JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[KENAT]

Cuttie,

Shame you didn't put out the information about getting the $500 after 6 months a bit sooner. Frankly having to wait a full year from that pay raise isn't too unreasonable/unusual.

It now seems the main problem is you aren't clear on the ground rules of how & when you get raises etc.

So step one, ask for a clear explanation on this.

Also ask what you need to do to be one of the 'promised ones'. You may want to be delicate with the wording but fundamentally you want to know what you have to do to get a more than cost of living adjustment/the one you think you merit.

If you don't like the answers you get then spend more time looking for a new place.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi Kenat,

You must be more tolerant of poor employers than I am. In today's recruitment market for O&G, the heavy process industries and the utilities, employers need to be looking after their people and actively trying to hold on to them. I really don't think that is happening with this outfit in Aberdeen. There are too many companies who are prepared to make the effort to waste time working for the ones who aren't.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[KENAT]

Maybe you have a point Scotty, I didn't work in O & G, in my industry at the time going a year without a raise wasn't unheard of. In fact for all but the most junior staff it was standard.

Still fundamentally I'm with you that if you don't like it, find somewhere else. In my old industry that was sometimes easier said than done, sounds like in O & G it's a bit more likely.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi -

Twenty years ago my industry and its cousins were taking an absolute battering between economic problems, years of union militancy, complacent management, and a government hellbent on destroying the UK's entire industrial base. If you had a job at all you were grateful, and the employers could treat staff like vermin, pay a pittance with less than a COLA rise and get away with it because the alternative was a long spell in the dole queue. That old adage 'as ye have sown, ye shall reap' is true and now those same employers and their successors are on the back foot with a desperate shortage of talent as a result of their policies in the past. They need to actively work to hang on to staff, and many of them haven't a clue how to do it. I'm all for working hard and being fair - I really don't know any other way - but that is definitely a two-way deal and if an employer doesn't want to play by those rules then I won't work for them. Today it's much much easier for me to replace them than it is for them to replace me.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[HamishMcTavish]

hi jmw,

i wasn't advocating using a job offer as leverage either - hence the caution. Holding people over a barrel never goes down well but it's nice to have an offer in your back pocket if negotiations grind to a halt.

Personally i've been in the situation where my boss has said "if you're not happy then find something else" so i did, got an offer from anther company and handed in my resignation. On my last day (just after the surprise leaving gift...) he asked me to reconsider and stay on. Needless to say i declined - i'd already made the mental leap to the next job.

Cheers HM

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[Drumchaser]

I personally have never asked for a raise. Figured if the feces got bad enough it would be time to hoist. (after another position was in the bag)
And, of course, when you tell them you are leaving, to take another position, you hear the old "We were going to do this and that for you."
If it takes me leaving to get the cheese flowing then working here is not a good thing.

Not sure how your field is faring with-in the economic ballyhoo that seems to be approaching/here. If you are comfortable, you should probably stick it out for a little while.

More money is not necessarily more happiness.

 

[Cutiee]

I never was going to ask for a raise, when I initially started the thread, I just wanted some opinion, but later on I found out the colleague who does less but get paid much more, really upsets me, he just came over asked me another question this morning, I feel its hard to deal with the unfairness. I want to cry

Cuttie