Do I tell him he is about to get fired 22

[nutengineer]

I am somewhat of Senior Manager in a very large company - 3,500+.

Through a VERY reliable source I have found out that a co-worker junior my status but not a "report" is going to be let go - probability 99.99%. While I consider him a friend - he is probably more an acquaintance - he lives 700 miles away.

Question: Do I tell him??

 

[dwallace1971]

What would you hope to accomplish by telling him? Would you be doing so in order that he might get a jump on looking for a new job or saving face by resigning ahead of termination?

"On the human scale, the laws of Newtonian Physics are non-negotiable"

 

[msquared48]

NO.

Things can change putting egg on your face. You telling him will not help him one iota, only possibly hurt you. Keep clam, especially since he is not your charge. You would be taking on the responsibility of another and possibly stepping on someone elses toes.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[DRWeig]

Imagine word gets back to HR or the fellow's manager that you spilled the beans. Don't do it.

Good on ya,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[jmw]

Definite no.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[jmw]

Incidentally, you shouldn't know yourself if he is not a direct report and probably know because someone told you for some reason but not as a need to know reason.
If this was part of a downsizing exercise which meant he was one of a number of people to be let go then you might have a legitimate knowledge. You still can say nothing, the responsibility is entirely for his own manager to make the final decision and tell him.
If you known because of a confidence you certainly cannot tell him.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[nutengineer]

Thanks guys -

That was my opinion also. Let things work their natural course - whatever that may be. Nothing good could come of it if I "spilled" the "beans"

And two weeks isn't going to help him much.

 

[SNORGY]

For a colleague or acquaintance...maybe not.

If he was a "friend" I would give him the heads-up, if I was in the know. For me, it's better to keep a friend and lose a job than it is to keep a job and lose a friend.

Sorry...that's just me. It's wrong professionally, but that would be a situation where I would choose to put my own well-being at risk.



Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[patprimmer]

SNORGY

You not only lose a job, but you also lose your reputation.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[msquared48]

Or gain one you do not want.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[casseopeia]

Losing your job is not usually a surprise. If your friend is smart, he will have figured his own probability for termination. If you want to help him, get a list of contacts together that could use his skills and send it to him when he is let go.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[TheTick]

Your answer is the same as for the question, "Do I want to go as well as him?"

 

[SNORGY]

It is quite a conundrum, for sure.

I just know I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror day in and day out if I knew something was coming that would hurt a friend and I didn't give him or her any warning about it.

What other people think of me matters less than what *I* think of me. They don't have to live with me; I do. Sorry...for a friend, I could not do anything other than alert him or her that something was up. If that means I lose a reputation...so be it, that's what I do.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[ajack1]

I actually find myself agreeing with both sides on this one.

My take on it would be I would only tell him if I was aware that the information would be really useful to him. For example he was thinking of taking out a loan to buy a new car, house extension or turning down the chance to move companies something of that magnitude.

There is no great logic behind this either ethical or professional, but like SNORGY I base many of my judgements on living with myself and treating others as I would hope they would treat me. If I felt the information was really useful to him I would take the moral high ground if not the professional one. Sometimes even I don’t know how my mind works.

 

[zdas04]

There is nothing in a company more confidential than personnel decisions. Repeating hearsay (which is all it can be since you are not in the decision loop) does no good and is nearly certain to backfire on you. This feels like an elementary school "I know something you don't know" kind of thing and only a 2nd grader would succumb to it.

I really can't believe that "somewhat of a Senior Manager" hasn't already worked this out. The first time I was in a similar situation I was a team leader (with the team all reporting to various supervisors who weren't me). One of the people on my team was being fired at the end of the month and her supervisor called to "give me a heads up". The heads up included instructions that I couldn't start transitioning his role until she was gone, but I needed to safeguard the parts of the project she had access to (i.e. all of it). I had a reason to be officially informed, but no right to communicate it in any way and any actions I took to "safeguard" stuff would be visible to the team. I did nothing, and on the first of the month nothing happened. Her supervisor's manager backed off on the staff reductions and she's since retired from the company at the end of her career. I was really glad that I kept my mouth shut.

By the time you get to "Senior Management" you have to have several similar stories, so why the hell did you bring it up here? This is not a gray area at all.

David

 

[SNORGY]

I think the problem with the question and the variance in the answers to it is that we are all approaching it from the views we have through our own biases and filters. Someone in management (an MBA, no doubt) described it as a case where we are all wearing sunglasses of different colours. The scenario and ensuing courses of action are very situational.

With respect to the OP (nutengineer) stating that he / she is somewhat of a senior manager, I assumed, taking that on face value, that the information he / she had received was probably dependable - more than just hearsay. If one was to subsequently be faulted for leaking the information in the first place, then that fault properly resides with those who informed nutengineer, not with nutengineer. Playing the scenario out, that is precisely the message that I would convey to HR if I was ever taken to task on it.

To me, rumours, hearsay etc. are cancerous and destructive in the workplace. The best way to kill one and get on with things is to let the subject of the rumour know about it. That gets things out in the open and forces everybody's hand. A work culture is only as good as what you create. You can choose to live and work in a clandestine, back-stabbing, double-agent mentality, or you can choose to be forthright, honest and embrace the spirit of team play.

Sorry...I have seen too many very good people get "screwed over" by their bosses or managers in situations similar to this, and I cannot with clear conscience turn a blind eye to things and pretend I don't know about it when a friend is involved. The only difficult decision in my mind would be "how" I told the person - word choice, environment, etc. I think the people I work with (or "for") now understand that, and they respect my ways by simply not confiding in me the things that would put me in such feelings of conflict.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[looslib]

Things can change, so it is best to keep that confidential information to yourself.

I worked for one company that had an opening in another division in another city. Company policy was that until the other division decided to interview you, you did not have to inform your manager of your interest in the other job. Imagine my surprise when I was called into my manager's office and asked point blank if I was considering leaving for that other division. I just replied that I had applied for their opening but hadn't heard anything yet. I almost went to HR becasue of the breach in policy, but decided it wouln't do any good. The 2 managers had both worked together at another division before they transferred to their current divisions.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[patprimmer]

I agree with zdas

I have been in situations where I had confidential information and I knew one company had promised the same contract to two different suppliers. Both suppliers where my customers, one was a business friend and one was a business and personal friend. Both where making a very considerable investment based on the promise of work.

I would never tell either that the other was quoting, let alone promised the work.

I did however council both re the wisdom of investment without a watertight contract as you can't be sure they (the end user) will keep their word. Both invested anyway. One my personal friend lost enough money to cripple his business.

He accepts I tried to tell him within the constraints I had and it was his own fault for being over optimistic.

SNORGY

In my opinion, the maximum you could do if in fact the circumstances where as you say, would be to advise them to be cautious of being over extended as times are tough and you yourself don't feel all that secure. You can't say they are not secure, but your statement that your not feeling all that secure implies that they also might not be.

It is very possible that you might alarm them to the point that they react strongly, do no one any good and take you down with them.

99 times out of 100 it does them no good to get told early but does you harm for telling them

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[josephv]

What does the Engineering Code of Ethics in your jurisdiction say?

Here is the Code of Ethics in Ontario:

http://www.peo.on.ca/Ethics/code_of_ethics.html

"3) A practitioner shall act in professional engineering matters for each employer as a faithful agent or trustee and shall regard as confidential information obtained by the practitioner as to the business affairs, technical methods or processes of an employer..."

"2 i)A practitioner shall, regard the practitioner's duty to public welfare as paramount;"

There are some cases when the duty to public welfare might override matters of confidentiality. I don't believe that this is the case here, since people get let go or fired all the time (i.e. it is not unusual). Consequently, business affairs, such as who is getting fired, are confidential as David (ZDAS) already stated.

 

[SNORGY]

patprimmer:

You are correct. That is what I was sort of alluding to in the last couple of lines in my post, but you have a way of saying it with less ambiguity.



Regards,

SNORGY.