Does democracy breed excellence 5

[arunmrao]

I have been debating myself and I thought now of posing the same to you members. Ideally democratic climate should promote the path to excellence for there would be very few hurdles.But the results are not too often seen.

While in the not so democratic countries the pressures to achieve and excel is huge and you can find stars in all walks of life.

I invite your views on this aspect and thank you in advance for your contributions. It will help me in my thought process.

 

[TheTick]

I don't believe it to be a matter of democracy as much as a matter of liberty.

 

[ietech]

Just my $.02

Our system allows unfettered opportunity for excellence and success. You are or can be anything you want, using your own methods, planning and hard work. On the other hand you can try hard and fail. Democracy is not a guarantee but a wonderful opportunity to try.

The USA was developed and is perpetuated by the imagination, dreams, and innovation of a hard working citizenry. We will continue to succeed in spite of the faceless cowards from other parts of the world sneaking up behind our backs and bombing us.

THETICK: You are sooooo right --- It's LIBERTY, FREEDOM and those who criticize would love to see those things dashed to the ground.

AMERICA (and Democracy anywhere) is the best. We have our problems but they will be solved in time by the same innovation, imagination and hard work that made us great from the onset.

AS mentioned in a previous post Iraq, India and Pakistan as being the dicoverers of several critical disciplines.

Please tell me; if they are proficient in these areas, why do they want to attend our universties to learn to apply the processes? Also, Why are they constantly at war within their own borders and with their close neighbors?

I say to those who think their system is better, PLEASE STAY WHERE YOU ARE and suceed there if you can. DON'T come here to criticize us try to change what we have to fit your own philosophies. If you don't like it here go home.

 

[corus]

India's national language is in fact english and if they do go abroad for their studies then, for those that can afford it, they tend to go to english speaking countries such as the USA and the UK for engineering courses, as far as I am aware.
Democracy doesn't play all that much part in excellence. Certainly the Soviet Union were the first to put a man in space and their rocket engines are used today by NASA.
In fact if you look at architecture/engineering then where the greatest examples have been built is under an authoritarian regime. Examples would be the great wall of china, the pyramids, my garden wall.
To answer ietech's last point, I like England but I may go to Portugal or France, haven't decided yet.

 

[ietech]

Corus: I hope you find something there you don't want to change or criticize. Go with God and enjoy. While you are ther don't judge the society. ENJOY IT AND LEARN.

"When in Rome do as the Romans"

 

[corus]

ietech, I'll be going by British Airways I think.
The romans, under their emperors, were another example of excellence under tyrannical power with their engineering of aquaducts, saunas, and general architecture. They also had sewage systems but I think this was first developed by the Minoans for their rulers.
Generally, where there is a need and a means then great things will be achieved, regardless of the society it develops in. If you've read that as a criticism of the USA then there's nothing more I can add, tenha um dia agradável.

 

[ChrisatEastAg]

corgum,
Yes, I meant the Three Gorges dam (dunno where five came from, sorry).
Anyway, it's a good case study for this particular thread. Is there more "opportunity for engineering excellence" in China, where a visionary project is marred by beaurocratic corruption, an apathetic labour force and questionable safety, environmental and social assessments? Or, for example, in Australia, where a project of this magnitude would not get past the concept stage without demonstrations in the streets, High Court challenges, appeals to the U.N. etc etc.
Any major project will have it's detractors, and in an open society those tend to be very loud and increasingly unscrupulous. Democratic governments don't like criticism, so good proposals can get canned on political rather than valid scientific grounds. Ah, if only the world was run by engineers...

Incidentaly, is Cuba still the pioneer of laser eye surgery?

And just a reminder for the 'love democracy or leave it' crew:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire

 

[ietech]

I don't think I said "Love it or leave it" I don't agree with that. I merely suggest, if you are a guest in another country you should be just that. You wouldn't go to dinner at someones house and criticize the way they set the table.
If you are unhappy here then it follows that there must be someplace you will be happier.

ALL ciitizens of ANY country should be vigilant about the way their gov't. is doing things. Their thoughts should be allowed to be expressed freely even if you don't agree. In America we can do that without reprisal. (at least for now)
In the USA we have this freedom, even visitors have this freedom.

Yes, the Romans did achieve excellence in some sreas. They were also one of the first democracies to fail, due to excessive greed and arrogance.

Keep in mind that much of what India has achieved is directly due to British influence when they were in power there.

So NO don't "Love it or Leave it" just find a place where you can find happiness and satisfaction in your life.

Yes, Cuba and laser eye surgery, what else have they offered the world under the current gov't?

I think the list for Americas'innovative engineering is far longer and encompasses more areas than all of the others mentioned in this thread totalled together. We have only been at it for 200++ years.

 

[Bbird]

This is not the place to air one's political view but since the subject is linked to democracy and country names were mentioned I feel I should point out that democracy is not the best thing since slice bread and certainly not always the best system for every country .

I would urge our American professionals to be mindful that democracy is just a name for a government sysem. It is how the system is being enforced that matters. We can have a very happy and prosperous country with dictorship if the ruler cares his people more than himself. In a populated society where there is a lot of illiteracy and little communication an authoritarian regime could be more a more efficieny form of government until the citizens beome educated and are aware of the outside world.
It is a fundamental mistake to force democracy down the throat of everybody just because it works in America. America was only a day or two without electricity in August and and all hell broke loose. It became an international news. Just think of many poor Iraqis without electricity, water, jobs, food and future since the second Gulf war. We can apply the democracy equally to everybody but can we apply the same standard of welfare to them?

Democarcy is a equitable way of sharing resources of the world and it works well when there is plenty to go round. If America has 10 times more population and only 1/10 times of land (and natural resources) they may be able to understand the difficulties of implementing democracy. If this is difficult to imagine then think of the gasoline price. Many engineers outside USA have to pay several times more for gasoline and have to drive cars several times smaller in engine capacity than the Americans. They can't do the same thing as the Americans and in fact Americans can't do it either but they keep the system going until there is no more oil left.

One's meat is another's poison. Many countries want the American free way of life but their own background must be taken into consideration. This is equally true when we come to apply engineering and rate what excellence is to us.

 

[ietech]

BBIRD

You are correct this is not the place and the original post should have been deleted at the onset. It's not engeneering related. I have noticed in several posts of yours that you are not reticent about expressing your political views on several occasions --- why stop others?

Yes, Democracy IS the best thing since sliced bread, for America --- I am not trying to say that it is right for all people and geographic environments. No one mentioned forcing our way down anyones throat. I am trying to say to all those in the world who constantly bash America (a republic) and Democracy --- STOP BASHING.

If you don't like the political posts that some professional engineers put on the forum then don't participate and delete the post as in-appropriate. It seems that you still were interested enough to post your views even after you stated in your first sentence that it's not the right place.

 

[TheTick]

Bbird:
re: Democarcy is a equitable way of sharing resources of the world...

Do explain, please.

 

[Bbird]

I am not criticising anybody's political view at all. It is the other way round. I just put my resevation upfront because I was committing the same mistake myself knowingly. This allows others to dismiss my view as they so wish because my message is declared clearly as a matter of opinion and not engineering knowledge.

From my experience most people want democracy but circumstances can prevent them from replicating the American system. A compromise is often struck. Most countries have some degree of democracy and it is just a matter of how free relative to the States.

To respond to TheTick's question I believe democracy by its very nature would permit freedom and equal rights to individuals and this can make greed and selfishness unpopular as everybody can voice his opinions and objections. People can become very wealthy and able to enjoy excess in an open and democractic society but could be criticised and look upon as social outclass, especially while their fellow citizens are suffering. In contrast with an authoritarian regeme wealth and excess are excluded to the privileged few in power while most are having trouble to make ends meet. There are still such examples in some Middle East countries. Thus I think democracy is an equitable way to share our resources.

 

[ietech]

BBird, your points are well stated and I respect your opinion. As a matter of fact, an opinion is about all a person can have regarding politics, even when it is related to engineering and the gov't impact on it. Our opinion will determine the way we vote. Thus our only way to change any policy is either belong to a huge special interest group and/or VOTE for representives who are sympathetic with yours or similar points of view.

I think all of the opinions posted, whether I agree or not have an impact not only on engineering but on all areas of our society and will ultimately determine whether we succeed or fail.

Usually the person/issue with the most votes wins (except in Florida)lol

 

[arunmrao]

Sorry I could not participate in the thread as I was away on tour. This is a great response that I have received. I do not want to color this forum with politics or issues not related to engineering. I respect your sentiments and views. I just felt that this might be affecting our lives in some way or the other where the best in us does not come out due to external factors not in our control.

US pattern of democracy is not followed every where and there are variations. Though essentially the government is "of the people,by the people and for the people". But in between comes the bureaucracy a legacy left behind by the Britishers which is followed even today. Though in post
WTO era this should have become irrelevant.

I am not being critical of any government or people,but I am exploring ways of improvement at least for the next generation to be better than mine.

I shall try and respond individually to all who have participated and made known their views.

Thanks once again.

 

[Heydave]

All things in moderation, including democracy. The US constitution moderates (limits) both the democratic and non democratic aspects of the US government thus resulting in the only remaining super power. There have been other forms of government that have existed during the same time and made excellent technological progress but eventually have self destructed or been so abusive that the rest of the world destroyed them. What should be looked at as the first motivator for a society's development is nationalism, not necessarily the form of government. Unmoderated nationalism can be self destructive as well.

 

[401K]

In my opionion people from other contries realized that if they work hard then they can easily come to a better country and be successful. I think that some Americans do not realize their full potential becuase they don't have too. While people from other countries work harder because they realize it is easy to study rather than work in a field or factory. So they work hard and America welcomes them in and we benefit from thier work and they benefit by being able to come to America.

I'm not saying that America is the best country in the world. I'm just saying that is is easy to be successful here compared to other countries.

 

[arunmrao]

China has successfully launched a manned space flight with indigenous technology and India is on the threshold of doing it. This was the exclusive domain of US and Soviet Union.Now this barrier too is broken.

 

[TheTick]

So, they've reached the 20th century just in time for the 21st?

 

[ornerynorsk]

Are there any democratic countries remaining out there? I learn something new every day!

 

[corus]

In fact democracy, in the form of a universal franchise, is only a recent event and it could be argued that many of the world's greatest achievements were made under a selected electorate or in the case of emperors/dictators with no electorate.
China's achievement in sending a man into space cannot be undervalued when you consider that they didn't have the help of scientists from other countries, such as europe.

 

[TheTick]

They had Bill Clinton's help in obtaining all manner of previously secret U.S. technology.