Does more "hands-on" work make a better design/manufacturing engineer? 3

[VivK]

Hi,

I have been lurking in this site for a while and found it to be a most helpful site. I have a career question and hope that someone can give me some advice. Thanks in advance.

I have a BE in Mech and had been working for about 6 years. I have a little experience in design and had been in R&D (making prototypes and mock-ups). In another word, I know a little bit about a few different areas, but not enough that I can handle a project all by myself.

For the past few years, I wanted to become a manufacturing engineer but due to my lack of design skills and manufacturing experience, I had been unsuccessful in my job search.

My current job seems to be a step towards my goal - I am about to start doing manufacturing systems benchmarking. However, I feel that this a very "hands-off" role, going for site visits and looking at processes etc. All theory but no "real experience" (the manufacturing engineers in the plant would probaly take over the implementation) so I won't get any practical experience from it. Even if I get to do any "real" implementation it would be when we finish the benchmarking (which could be the end of next year).

On the other hand, there is a job that I had a few interviews for (the prospect looked really promising). The role is as a project engineer for a small automated equipment company. The work will be getting customer specs, design, build and deliver. To me, it seems more like a hands-on role. The disadvantage will be that I may not get the overview of manufacturing systems but I will get to know the different type of processes and the equipment required.

My question (or confusion) is, which role will make me a better engineer and give me more chance of working in the manufacturing field in the future? The more hands-on role (where I'll learn manufacturing processes and the equipment) but with less manufacturing overview, or the benchmarking role with better manufacturing overview but perhaps more theory then practical experience?

Thanks for your time.

 

[GregLocock]

Congratulations on having a choice like that to make. They both sound very sensible moves on your part. If you are determined to work in manufacturing then the benchmarking job sounds slightly preferable to me. On the other hand, the other one involves working for a small company, which has its own advantages and disadvantages, and is more of a 'go to woe' proposition, so you'll be involved every step of the way.




Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[zdas04]

VivK,
I find the time I spent as a plant operator and construction manager to have made me a much more effective design engineer and project manager. When I design a facility, the folks that are going to operate it look at the plans and say "I think I can operate that". Then they give me extensive changes of course. But (here is the important part) when their changes detract from the project and are more "it's just the way I like to do ..." it is obvious to me and I can throw them out without hurt feelings - I have credibility because I've been there and done that. Many of my collegues think they are above getting their boots dirty (if indeed they own boots, mostly they wear soft shoes) and the field guys can see that from miles away.

I've also done main-office-based benchmarking and peer reviews and hated life as an outsider/rat-fink.

Personnaly I would take the small-company job and get your hands real dirty and pay your dues. That is just me and I'm an old fart.

David

 

[ornerynorsk]

Crawling comes before walking. Experience is always a plus. As zdas04 said, "they can see you coming a mile away" applies very realistically to projects where you do need to get your hands dirty and talk "shop" with people. You have much more credibility if you've got hands-on experience to back up the parchment on the wall.

 

[TheTick]

Asking which is more important for engineers, hands-on experience or theoretical knowledge, is like asking whether blue or yellow is more necessary when making green. Still, I applaud your efforts to get more hands-on.

I see no reason why you couldn't use your benchmarking role to also get your hands dirty. Insist on it as part of your work.

You don't fight destiny, no sir... and you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future!

 

[EdDanzer]

As an employer we look for engineers that have actually used the equipment that is used to make the part. The buzz word is design for manufacturability, to design it for manufacturability you must know how to make it. One of the best ways to get these skills is to help the shop people, they know the tricks of the trade. There is no reason to become good at any manufacturing process, just having a good working knowledge so you can communicate with the shop personal is sufficient. Another option is to take some trade school classes.
The trick is to balance theory and reality.

 

[ICman]

Whew! What a decision you have to make. The old adage, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" must be considered nowadays. Jobs are hard to find. When you change, you take a risk, but if you don't, you may go nowhere.

I would consider the job with the smaller company. Chances are, you will be more involved with the actual production than you think. Heck, you might even be makin' the products at times.

Otherwise, push for some field "trials" or "research" in your present job. That will at least get you out there, but it isn't really "hands-on" experience.

You might think about joining the Society of Manufacturing Engineers, or a similar organization. Participation in a professional society may produce leads and more information, perhaps landing you a mentor.

Good luck!

 

[TheTick]

VivK:

Just the fact that you are considering such things means much. If you continue to keep your mind open and learning, and keep your horizons wide, you will succeed one way or the other.

 

[VivK]

Hi all,

Thanks for all your advices. Sorry I didn't reply sooner - I wanted to wait until I hear a yay or nay from the company first. I got the answer last week, and it was a nay

It seems that (so I was told) since I last talked to them, more people had left the company and now they needed experienced engineers. Being really under staff, they could not afford to train someone at the moment (which they were prepare to do before more people left). Oh well.

In my current job, the manufacturing systems benchmarking had been put on hold. I am now given the task of updating and expanding a Competitive Analysis Database and had been doing it for a few weeks now. In theory, this task should give me a view of the different designs, processes, materials etc, but somehow putting products through tests and filling in database does not stimulate me. Am I being too picky and whiny? Yes I may be able to ask for some "hands-on" work to get my hands dirty, but the truth is there is so much urgent testing and database updating to be done that I don't see myself having any time to do other work for at least another half a year or so.

Even though I didn't get the other job, thanks again for all your advices. There is experience to be gain and lessons to be learnt at any job, it just depends on if they are what I am after. For me, I prefer more "hands-on" and I will continue to look for such roles. I am currently getting my dose of theory from doing post-grad studies in manufacturing engineering.

One more question:
Do engineers who remain technical become "specialised" after a while? Like I said before, I had been working for 6 years but my experience had been very "scattered" and I feel really uncomfortable about it.

VivK

 

[Sparweb]

VivK,

Take some consolation that if it's a small company and lots of people are leaving the engineering department, you might not want to be there.

My first five years in the workforce as a technologist have been in a small "hands-on" company, getting the job done from design to shipping and every step in between. Being on the other side of the fence from where you sit, I highly recommend it. It's what I enjoy doing.

I'm happy to be specialized. Luckily, I'm not planning any big career moves in the near future. If you're specialized in an industry that interests you, doing work that is, for the most part, enjoyable, then you're doing okay. I've got a co-worker, however, that doesn't seem to be asking the same questions you are. He has blinders on that will prevent him from developing the view of the "big picture" that experienced engineers have. Your experience may be specialized, but if your interest is broad, then you won't come off like that soft-handed pencil-pushing outsider that you dread.

Whether you're specialized or more broadly experienced may have some impact on your ease of getting another job. More specialized, and you have to find just the right company to get hired. More general experience, and you'll appeal to more companies in the future, but it doesn't seem like it would be work you'd enjoy.

Overall, any experience is good experience, and as long as you sponge up as much as you can, you'll be getting better every day.


STF

 

[VivK]

STF

"Overall, any experience is good experience, and as long as you sponge up as much as you can, you'll be getting better every day.

I agree, but what if say only 10% of work that I do now will be useful to where I want to go? I am getting increasing frustrated in my current role. I'm bored at work and not as productive as I know I can be. What I had not mentioned eariler was that the company closed down the R&D dept that I was working at. I know I was lucky to still have a job, though it is a job that I would not have applied for myself as it's not the career direction that I want to go. I am reclutant to talk to the manager about it as I feel that they only kept me to for this role.

So I am having a look around, which bought up the issue of specialisation. With that I didn't even mean specialising in a particular field or industry, just whether one is more experience in CAD, design, R&D or manuf. Jobs that aren't graduate work seems to always want at least 3-5 experience in design or manuf, which is experience that I don't quite have.

Experience wise:
- An 8 mths contract as maintenace engineer customising a CMMS for a manufacturing company. I quite liked working in the maintenance dept.
- 2 yrs as junior design engineer in a small company building one-off/small volume of various type of equipment. I enjoyed that work too even though I was only give small tasks and never got to see a project from beginning to completion. I left there as the management was really bad, no training or development for graduates. The turn over rate of that company was really high!
- 2 years in R&D. I liked the hands-on aspect of building prototype but it had far less designing work then I had expected.
- And now as Benchmarking Engineer?

As you can see I had short stint in various areas. I found that I have trouble getting design roles as my design experience hadn't quite go beyond junior design even though I had been out of uni for quite a few years. I am neither here or there. Friends say that I have "transferable skills". This is true but other applicates have "spot-on" skills that are specific to the job advertised. Are graduate/junior roles my only option to concentrate in one area to build up experience? I hope not but I'm keeping my options open.

VivK

 

[DeeLeigh]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm in a different area of engineering, but I've been feeling the same way.

In my case, the way to get "hands on" experience is to be on-site during building construction projects, or even to do some construction work. Having that kind of experience is especially difficult/unusual for a woman (which I am). Also, I found myself with some free time after finishing my engineering degree, which I'd earned while working full time.

So... I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity and ended up as a co-houseleader. We built on weekends, and I learned about and got experience in every area of residential construction. It was very helpful in my job. It would be even more helpful if I could get that kind of experience in commercial construction, but I'm leaving for grad school in the fall and I'll aim to get a job where I can spend more time on-site after I finish the degree.

Maybe there's a way you can get some hands on experience outside of your normal job. Perhaps some consulting work, or a project of your own?

 

[JTMcC]

Speaking as someone on the other side of the fence, that is a non engineer, owner of a little welding and fabrication company, I can tell you that you just about can't overestimate the value of hands on experience when dealing with those doing the work. An engineer with insight into how and why things are done in the field gains great credibility and respect from those used to dealing with engineers that provide solutions that are impractical or impossible to implement in the real world. Great things can be done when mutual respect and consideration exist between the engineer and the builder.

regards,
JTMcC

 

[Sparweb]

Another thing to mention: the farther you go post-graduate, the less likely you will be to recieve any "hands-on" work. The system is set up to "reward" the intellectual stream with less manual labour. It is a reward in a sense, because it is during physical labour that the most people get injuries. Unfortunately, the designer becomes isolated from the techniques and processes upon which he relies.

What do you think of the suggestion that was made before, by zdas04 and ornerynorsk, that you should "pay your dues" before "earning" the privilege of moving up to the design work? This would mean a big change in your direction. You would likely have to conceal whatever graduate work you have done in order to get a job interview. Employers look at a graduate degree and say "I can't afford to pay a university graduate to do a technician's job".

Careful with the consulting work idea: once you've gone on your own, it's your credibility that keeps you there. The same credibility you're striving for.


STF

 

[yates]

I would tend to agree with zdas04 - it's early on in your career you need to get the hands-on experience, and believe me that kind of experience is worth gold when you get into design. What's the use of calculating capacitor-effect required separation distance between high voltage conductors in Africa, when the critical factor is the length of a monkey's arms so you don't get short-outs ?. What's the use of designing your pylon for a once-in-20-year wind load when all the local elephants just love to scratch their backs on them ?
OK I'm exaggerating, but practical experience will give you a much broader-based thinking attitude and earn a lot more resoect for what you design.
I'm one of the lucky ones - I did my engineering degree concurrently with dirty-hand work as an apprentice and it sure helps to put into practice immediately what you're learning, or conversely to realize the practical reason behind this stuff they're putting up on the blackboard.
Jump in with that small company, and don't forget : 'knowledge is the realisation of how little we know'.
Good Luck

 

[buzzp]

Hands on experience definately makes a better engineer. Most engineers do NOT have this experience. So they are not knowledgable about field issues, which is extremely important for product design. It also shows the employer that your not a nerdy guy with massive allergies and will not be blown over if you sneeze near him and that you have some 'mechanical' ability. Get hands-on experience while your fairly young and you will not regret it. Just don't get caught in the hands-on world to long (1-2 years of hands-on is enough).

 

[VivK]

If I don't get to do much "hands-on" stuff at work, would a hobby help?

I guess it depends on the job and what knowledge is required. I'm about to start working on restoring a Renault 12 TL. Is it something I could mention in interviews or is it too trivial?

 

[Sparweb]

Not too trivial. On your resume, you should have a line for recreational activities (or some other phrasing) and mentioning "auto restoration" is a worthwhile addition. My boss has restored MG's. Any applicant would have made a big impression on him if he'd also done restorations.

Does it take care of the hands-on question? "Partly" would be my vote. Doing if for fun, and being paid to do it, are two different things.

STF

 

[pablo02]

I spent 28 years on the maintenance & operations of power plants (mostly operations) and I cused and swore at every design firm who hired kids out of the universities to sit and design from an office... now that I'm on the other side of the fence (sitting at a desk doing design work -- longing for time in the field) I do have a slightly different perspective: that 1) a lot of designs are changed in the field without the deigners knowing about 2) many designs are dictated by the customer (without input from the field) so, I have to give the designers some slack...

However, I find field experience invaluable in making sure the design is not only designed correctly, but is workable, maintainable, and fits the operating needs...

when we interviewed new engineers out of school, we were more interested in those who a) maintained their own car rather than took it to the shop for an oil change b) had hobbies or skills such as wood working, welding, restoring cars -- those things that indicated they had good mechanical skills (appled even to electrical and other engineers), weren't afraid to get their hands dirty, and could deal with people... we wanted hands on people [these people were also our supply for management positions]

of course, I like to get my hands on it... theory is all right, but I like to see something physical that functions from my efforts.. that's rewarding to me...

 

[yates]

VivK,
Yes definitely put 'old-car restoration' in your resumé. The more enlightened HR people realize during recruiting that very few other hobbies require such large doses of perseverance, adaptability, patience, nasty situation skills and general mechanical 'feeling'. I admit to having been influenced in this direction whilst hiring 'engineers'.