Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering" 4

[RARWOOD]

Over the years I have heard some interesting arguments about what falls under the practice of engineering and what does not. I've know non-registered engineers who offered design services. They always argued that they were not offering engineering services, just providing designs. I always believed when an engineer provided a design they were practicing engineering.

Today you here a lot about "Value Engineering". In some cases that service is being offered by registered engineers and in other cases by non-emgimeers. Since it appears in most states that you can be a computer engineer with out being registered maybe the same thing applies to "Value Engineers"

 

[Atomic25]

In my opinion, the best "value engineer" is an estimator who is closely connected to the present day material and labor costs AND has a good knowledge of structural design.

 

[msquared48]

I did one of these 20 years ago or so, and it involved a look at the project, a government project, by another complete design team - Architects, Civil, Structural, Mechanical, and Electrical Engineers, Estimators, and Contractors...The whole ball of wax.

So, in answer to your question, no, but it helps.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[Qshake]

I don't know that you have to be a PE to be a value engineer but I do that there are certified value engineers and many times a client will specify that in RFPs.

now, how one deals with the terminology certified value engineer and is not an engineer, well that's what most state boards of licensing chase after....

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[csd72]

RARSWC,

You could propose an alternative design, but could you stand by the validity of your design and issue signed and sealed calculations - no. This could be a problem.

 

[RARWOOD]

csd72

If you mean could I personally stand by the validity of my design and issue signed and sealed calculations, the answer is yes for the states that I am registered as a P.E.

My involvement with "Value Engineering" usually comes after the fact. I will get a system that has been changed, through value engineering, from the orginal design. My job then is to actually do the design. Often times I end up going back to who ever did the value engineering and asking them how in the world did they expect their alternate design to work.

I deal with a lot of cases where people down size glulam beams because they were oversized to begin with. However often when I try to detail the connections I deal with problems that would not have existed with the orginal deeper beams.

 

[registeredpe]

Greetings:

I am not a lawyer but I do know that in the state of Arizona, that if a firm or individual (by the way, I have never even heard of value engineers, certified or otherwise) makes any changes or revisions to a registrants construction documents he or she must not only be duly registered but must & shall, under the law also be fully liable for said changes or revisions.

Best regards, registeredpe in AZ,

 

[registeredpe]

Greeting again:

I just retrieved my quarterly newsletter from my mailbox from the Arizona State Board of Technical Registration and under their mission statement it reads,"The purpose of this agency is to protect the public by setting appropriate registration qualifications and enforcing state statutes relating to the practice of all Board-regulated professions and occupations.
Any person who does any of the following is acting in violation of the law and is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor:

1. Practices, offers to practice or by any implication holds himself out as qualified to practice any Board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not registered or certified as provided by this chapter.

2.Advertises or displays any card, sign or other device that may indicate to the public that the person is certified or registered or is fully qualified to practice any Board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not registered or certified as provided by this chapter.

3.Uses "certified", "professional certified", "professional", "registered", "registered professional" or "professional registered" in conjunction with any Board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not certified or registered as provided by this chapter.

So it is my humble opinion that if a "value engineer" performs any work for the public(at least in AZ)he or she must be duly registered.

For additional Info. go to

http://www.azbtr.gov

Thanks again, registeredpe in AZ

 

[hokie66]

"Value engineering" is not usually performed by professional engineers. As someone else said, it is usually done by an estimator, quantity surveyor, or construction consultant. It really just involves making recommendations for improving buildability and economy, and whether or not the recommendations are accepted usually involves additional work for the design engineer and negotiation with the owner or builder.

The widespread use of the word "engineer" is the problem. At least in Australia we don't call a train driver an engineer.

 

[csd72]

RARSWC,

That is exactly what I mean, I did not intend to question your capability. If you were in their situation and you didnt have a PE, then your suggestions would hold no weight.

But if you are a PE but not in that state, then I would think you could propose alternate designs that the original engineer would have to engineer.

 

[RARWOOD]

csd72

Ok, I understand the idea, you were trying to convey. If some one provides "Value Engineering" by proposing an alternate strutural system the value of their service is dependent on their qualifications. If they are a PE qualified to practice structural engineer then the value of the service they provide is probably going to be fairly high.

 

[registeredpe]

Greetings:

csd72, it is against the law to provide structural engineering services in a state that an engineer is not registered in (at least in the good ol' U.S.A).

Additionally, it would be nice to know what part of the globe posters reside in to get a feel for their question/comments.

Best regards, registeredpe in AZ

 

[csd72]

registeredpe,

But part of the question is is value engineering engineering. As many have said the final design of the revised scheme is usually carried out by the original engineer, so the 'value engineer' is usually there for a cost efficiency prospect only. PE laws dont necesarily apply.

I am in NY, previously residing in Australia and the UK.

RARSWC,

I meant more along the lines of competency and understanding of the implications of the changes. If a carpenter proposed changes to the structural frame then no one would listen to him because he obviously doesnt know what he is talking about.

 

[PatBethea]

CSD72,

I hope you were being sarcastic with that last comment. I've met several carpenters who knew alot more about structural design and buildability than alot of newly minted PEs (or SEs). They may not know the difference between ASD and LFRD or have any letters after their name, but that doesn't make them incompetent. If I were building an engineered structure, I'd definitely ask for my carpenter's input before I approved a design - I've seen way too many engineers try to get cute or just have no idea how their design would actually be built to not get some input from the man in charge of erecting it. In that sense, a carpenter can be a great "value engineer".

 

[registeredpe]

Greetings:

Then it is my humble opinion that you have not met nearly enough carpenters, I would say.

Best regards,registeredpe in AZ

 

[cvg]

in my experience with value engineering (in Arizona) it has always been done by a team of engineers. Occasionally, a contractor might also be on the team. A certified "value engineer" might facilitate the session or not. The result is simply a proposal which the owner and the engineer evaluate for possible implementation in the design. This process is often required for projects receiving any federal funding.

Now, a second method of value engineering is also used here in construction contracts. It is much more informal. A contractor may make a "value engineering change proposal (VECP)" to the owner. He will do this to lower the cost, speed up the construction or make his job easier and hopefully save some money for himself and the owner in the process. The owner is then bound by the contract to review the VECP and possibly issue a change order to the contractor to make the change. The review of this VECP (from an engineering standpoint) and any modifications to the plans again should be done by either the original designer or by another engineer.

 

[civilperson]

A "Value Engineering Proposal" is usually submitted to the Engineer by the contractor suggesting a change in the original spec or plans which will bring a saving to the owner.

 

[cvg]

the contract is between the contractor and the owner, so it is always submitted to the owner. hopefully, the owner is sophisticated enough to have an engineer review it to render an opinion on the technical merits. However, in my experience, that unfortunately is not always the case.

 

[csd72]

What is this "Engineers unite in support of carpenters" day? Was I meant to give a case of beer to the nearest carpenter? Or was I meant to give them a hug?

Anyway, I agree that some carpenters do have valid opinions on things to do with wood construction, but in my experience most dont. I always listen to the guy on site and if feasible, I will follow their requests.

 

[registeredpe]

Greetings:

csd72, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. My post was supposed to be directed to the post made by patbethea(mechanical). I agree with you on this and to further expound on the topic, it is not just limited to carpenters.

Best regards,registeredpe in AZ