Don't fall into this trap 4

[unclesyd]

I have an acquaintance who purchased an old solid brick house circa, 1890. This house is rather unique in that the brick walls are approximately 8" thick and has 6" of cork insulation on the bottom floor. The whole interior is beautifully finished plaster, especially the ceilings.

Here is the trap:
Some renovation had to be done while bring the house up to meet the current electrical codes. While taking out some of the overhead fixtures the electricians noticed fiber in the plaster and sounded the alarm for Asbestos. This brought in a slew of inspectors, hazmat, and finally the asbestos people. In short it determined that that all the ceiling plaster would need to be removed by a certified asbestos contractor.
The estimate for this was $65,000+. The owner, who could cover this OK, but decided to call in another expert so called me to ask if I knew anyone. After hearing his story I had one question, what color was the fiber? His answer was it was brown and determined to be "crystallized asbestos". After this I told him to put an immediate halt to all proceedings and recall the previous experts for a little experiment. I had him take a few of the fibers and put them in small SS mixing bowel heat same with propane torch and after a few seconds to light the smoke. After this demonstration have them reevaluate their findings.
I did tell him that the fibers were horse hairs. He is going to call me back on how things turn out in couple of days.

 

[JAE]

Nice...heh heh.

 

[msucog]

huh, i have heard of horse hairs but never thought about someone mistaking them for asbestos. nice catch.

 

[JAE]

So what does it mean when someone calls their horse - "Fibermesh"/??

 

[csd72]

JAE

luv ya work!

 

[dicksewerrat]

I guess the old guys have to educate the new people. I thought everybody knew that horsehair was used in plaster from the dark ages till the 1930's.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[msucog]

i don't deal with stuff like this but i knew it was used...i just never thought about someone that experienced with asbestos to go mistaking it as asbestos. surely seems odd that the asbestos folks didn't know it wasn't asbestos...makes you wonder how many people dropped a small fortune remediating horse hair plaster.

 

[msquared48]

Frankly, I've never heard of that before. But considering the other uses for horsehair, I'm not surprised.

We all learn something new every day here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[Rjeffery]

I lived in a house, as a boy, that had "horse hair, lathe and plaster" walls. I am also a trained asbestos abaitment supervisor (not an asbestos inspector, yet). As Unclesyd was developing his story I could see the convergence, like a head on car crash that I could not turn away from.

Thanks for the lesson! a star for you!

The best way to test something is to squeeze it, slowly, until it breaks!

 

[mdmiller]

Thanks for bringing that to everyones attention. We see horse hair in plaster all the time in buildings built around 1900. I too thought it was common knowledge. Location - Iowa.

 

[unclesyd]

The rest of the story.
It ended up in a finger pointing session. Everyone stating that they thought someone else verified/tested the plaster, when actually no one did. It seems that the wheels were put into motion on the say of the electrician. Everything would have been alright except for the time lost in the renovation with one exception.
The exception is the asbestos removal company wants a fairly large mobilization fee. The home owner told the company that he didn't feel he was obligated for said fee and the company is going to sue. That is bad news for the company as the home owner's wife is a principle in large law firm (commercial) and her father is a partner in one of the top law firms in the southeast.

PS
The inspectors missed a biggie in the inspection that came with asbestos fiasco.
All the major support beams are set in masonry pockets with a poured lead surround or on lead plates between the wood and masonry on all places where the two meet.

 

[hokie66]

Unclesyd,

Don't just tease us. Tell us what is wrong with the lead beam pockets.

 

[unclesyd]

There was some remediation required of some painted surfaces due to lead based paints.
I just added this based on the OP as the house was inspected from top to bottom after asbestos affair.

There is nothing wrong with the lead in pockets. As you probably know anything with or about lead usually gets all types of attention, especially if exposed as this is while in the basement. The owner may have dodged a bullet on this one as the basement is not finished and only used for storage.
I like the idea of lead since it prevents any rotting of the wood, though this wood is heart pine and probably doesn't need any help. Also the wood eating creatures don't like it either.

There was one other thing that warranted some investigation was the floor and stairs in the basement. The floor and stairs are constructed from a very hard field stone and grouted with a white cement. The cement was first thought to be a white lead cement, but again a bullet missed as the cement was a magnesium oxychloride cement.

 

[cooperDBM]

Lead, like asbestos, is only an issue if it can be inhaled or ingested. Paint can flake or become dust. I've also heard of kids gnawing on window sills, presumably following the family dog's example. Lead in water pipes is obvious. I don't see any way for the lead in the beam pockets to be consumed since I don't think they would break down into flakes or dust.