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'Educated' opinions on climate change part 2 40

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More GW Physics:


Conclusion:
Even if temperature had risen above natural variability, the recent solar Grand Maximum may have been chiefly responsible. Even if the sun were not chiefly to blame for the past half-century’s warming, the IPCC has not demonstrated that, since CO2 occupies only one-ten-thousandth part more of the atmosphere that it did in 1750, it has contributed more than a small fraction of the warming. Even if carbon dioxide were chiefly responsible for the warming that ceased in 1998 and may not resume until 2015, the distinctive, projected fingerprint of anthropogenic “greenhouse-gas” warming is entirely absent from the observed record. Even if the fingerprint were present, computer models are long proven to be inherently incapable of providing projections of the future state of the climate that are sound enough for policymaking. Even if per impossibilethe models could ever become reliable, the present paper demonstrates that it is not at all likely that the world will warm as much as the IPCC imagines. Even if the world were to warm that much, the overwhelming majority of the scientific, peer-reviewed literature does not predict that catastrophe would ensue. Even if catastrophe might ensue, even the most drastic proposals to mitigate future climate change by reducing emissions of carbon dioxide would make very little difference to the climate. Even if mitigation were likely to be effective, it would do more harm than good: already millions face starvation as the dash for biofuels takes agricultural land out of essential food production: a warning that taking precautions, “just in case”, can do untold harm unless there is a sound, scientific basis for them. Finally, even if mitigation might do more good than harm, adaptation as (and if) necessary would be far more cost-effective and less likely to be harmful.

In short, we must get the science right, or we shall get the policy wrong. If the concluding equation in this analysis (Eqn. 30) is correct, the IPCC’s estimates of climate sensitivity must have been very much exaggerated. There may, therefore, be a good reason why, contrary to the projections of the models on which the IPCC relies, temperatures have not risen for a decade and have been falling since the phase-transition in global temperature trends that occurred in late 2001. Perhaps real-world climate sensitivity is very much below the IPCC’s estimates. Perhaps, therefore, there is no “climate crisis” at all. At present, then, in policy terms there is no case for doing anything. The correct policy approach to a non-problem is to have the courage to do nothing
 
jmw - I agree. It has been heated at times. Maybe I should cool it. I'm warming up to the idea, anyway.

LCruiser - Interesting article

Conclusion:...the IPCC has not demonstrated that, since CO2 occupies only one-ten-thousandth part more of the atmosphere that it did in 1750, it has contributed more than a small fraction of the warming
Are you inclined to trust the objectivity of someone who in his conclusion highlights the volume fraction of CO2 in air, when we all know that the vast majority of air is N2 and O2 (not greenhouse gases) ?

More importantly, the web-page that you linked to has an "abstract", references, and the "American Physical Society" Logo on it. Gives one the impression we have something like a peer-reviewed article or article endorsed by APS, doesn't it ?!? As usual, the impression given by the links is false:

APS Climate Change Statement
APS Position Remains Unchanged

The American Physical Society reaffirms the following position on climate change, adopted by its governing body, the APS Council, on November 18, 2007:

"Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate."

An article at odds with this statement recently appeared in an online newsletter of the APS Forum on Physics and Society, one of 39 units of APS. The header of this newsletter carries the statement that "Opinions expressed are those of the authors alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of the APS or of the Forum." [red]This newsletter is not a journal of the APS and it is not peer reviewed[/red]

So, LCruiser - who are you inclined to give more weight to... the American Physical Society, or some guy named Christopher Monckton who tells us nothing about himself ?

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And the more detailed statement of the position of APS (not some person posting on a newletter forum) is given here:
Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate. Greenhouse gases include carbon dioxide as well as methane, nitrous oxide and other gases. They are emitted from fossil fuel combustion and a range of industrial and agricultural processes.

The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.

Because the complexity of the climate makes accurate prediction difficult, the APS urges an enhanced effort to understand the effects of human activity on the Earth’s climate, and to provide the technological options for meeting the climate challenge in the near and longer terms. The APS also urges governments, universities, national laboratories and its membership to support policies and actions that will reduce the emission of greenhouse gases.


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Not everyone knows how little CO2 there is in the atmosphere. As for who to believe, why don't you read the article and let us know what's wrong with it?

Moncton has received so many ad hominem attacks from Realclimate that I am inclined to believe him.
 
Yes,
he was an advisor to Mrs Thatcher and has written a number of very interesting articles in the Telegraph newspaper.
It is worth reading his articles and looking at the responses, anc contrasting the language of some of the AGW supporters.

JMW
 
Australia is about to launch a CO2 emissions trading scheme, a largely symbolic act, since we emit less in total than China's annual increase in emissions each year. At the same time this will cripple some industries and is unlikely help the economy.

One of the architects of the government's case for CO2 emissions trading has rather changed his mind...


Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
 
Another APS link:
The executive committee of the Forum on Physics and Society, however, believes that the statement in the July 2008 edition of our newsletter, Physics and Society, that "There is considerable presence within the scientific community of people who do not agree with the IPCC conclusion that anthropogenic CO2 emissions are very probably likely to be primarily responsible for the global warming that has occurred since the Industrial Revolution," exaggerates the number of scientists who disagree with the IPCC conclusion on anthropogenic CO2 and global warming. That statement does not represent the views of APS or the Executive Committee of the Forum on Physics and Society. The FPS Executive Committee strongly endorses the position of the APS Council that "Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate.
Apparently the statement they are backing away from was made by one of their editors here:
Also, at the above link, we find out the Monckton letter was in response to an invitation to post on this topic. I am pretty sure we will be hearing some response from both sides in the coming months in the APS newletter.

I would say Monckton strings together some persuasive sounding arguments, although I'm no climate expert (who here is?) and it's beyond my ability to critique them. I will look forward to hearing how the experts on both sides respond.

Hopefully, there is some discussion on the AGW fingerprint - expected distribution of AGW change vs latitude and vs altitude. There was some discussion that some of the errors have been corrected in the abstract that I linked 30 Jun 08 23:53, but it doesn't address all the questions and I haven't heard much about it from the side of those who are concerned that AGW may be real.

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Interesting - the monckton link now includes a red disclaimer at the front announcing this is not peer reviewed and not endorsed by the APS

But google cache shows the way it was originally published, no such disclaimer:

It is not a very important aspect. But I just wanted to defend my earlier statement that (at the time I first viewed the link), the article had the "look" of a peer reviewed or endorsed article, when in fact it was not.

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Electricpete says:

"I would say Monckton strings together some persuasive sounding arguments, although I'm no climate expert (who here is?) and it's beyond my ability to critique them."

Which, of course, is not true. One does not have to be able to string together *all* of "global warming" theory, indeed *nobody* can do that. The sciences vary from astrophysics to botany, with a good understanding of very basic thermodynamics the elephant in the middle of the room.

What engineers can do is see failures of the dogma, like e.g. the lapse rate fraud. The adiabatic lapse rate has nothing to do with CO2, and indeed is the same on all planets of the solar system. Hot air rises. Here on Earth, humid air takes latent heat away from the surface at a rate proportional to the distance from the equilibrium of said lapse rate. More surface heat, more evaporation, faster water vapor rise, more latent heat removed, more clouds and rainfall. Controlling negative feedback. The lapse rate remains the same. Venus has a hot surface because of the thickness of the atmosphere, that's all. The lapse rate is the same there as on Earth.
 
My opinion would be nuclear energy for power generation (stationary things) and fossil fuels for transport(mobile).

By the way, how long will it take the GHGE advocates to say that 'working out causes global warming'? I sure go through a lot of CO2 every time I climb a mountain!

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>
 

Actually, by doing outdoor exercise like mountain climbing you are saving CO2. Compared to going to an indoor gym that has electronic equipment and bright lights. Unless you go to an indoor gym that hooks up the bicycle spinners to generators and has other energy efficient systems set up.
 
So, if oceans absorb 1/4 of CO2, wouldn't ice melting offset CO2 generation?
Mirrors in space? Are they going to be hand-manufactured to offset CO2 emissions? well, Star-Trek doesn't seem such a far fetched TV show no more.
SO2 into the atmosphere? Doesn't SO2 + H2O ==> H2SO3? Talk about acid rain.
Increasing phytoplankton in the ocean? What about oxigenation of the water for life (fish) support then.
Changing the ocean's pH?

Am I alone here or these guys are not for real, just tripping for a bit.

I know the article suggests caution, I say just slam the door on these unreal ideas. Anthropogenic global warming is being dis-proved more and more. However policies that are starting to affect our way of living and hitting our pockets are being created. Give science back to scientists and take it away from politicians. There should be a by-law on that regards.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>
 
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