Engineer? 30

[MacGruber22]

Nearly every time I get into a career/job conversation with a few of my friends I find it interesting how they hold so tightly onto job title definitions that have nothing or little to do with engineering. They didn't go to engineering school, they don't know how to solve even the most basic static force system (in any engineering discipline), can't revolve a vector into components, etc. etc... Yet, they are continually offended that I make the claim that their title should be stripped of containing the word "engineer".

Is this an issue worth defending? If "yes", what is the most sound way to argue the point?

 

[SNORGY]

KENAT,

True - very true - even our Association locally here could never define it. Yet, somehow, universities seem pretty comfortable with being able to define the curriculum that leads to the degree.

I'd be happy with a definition that starts with that: a person having a degree in engineering from an accredited institution.

No DEGREE, no ENGINEER.

Pretty simple in my books.

I am sorry I come across, to some at least, as so passionate about this, but the industry (at least the one in which I work) is rampant with unqualified clowns running the show and doing reckless, ignorant and just plain stupid things - just because our laws are too "inclusive" and "tolerant". It's nothing short of blasphemy.

 

[MacGruber22]

Yes, the definition is paramount. So, what is the essence of an engineer (in the US)?

1. Engineering Degree approved by ABET?
2. ?
3. ?
.
.
.
99. ?

 

[SNORGY]

MacGruber22,

If you stop at (1.) and do / state nothing else, that would solve a lot.

It really is, or can be, that simple.

 

[KENAT]

Well Snorty you lost me already.

As I've said before some of the best engineers I've ever worked with did not have a degree. They'd gone the apprenticeship route back in the day with city and guilds qualifications etc. and decades of experience.

Some of the worst 'engineers' I've had to deal with not only had a degree in engineering but the equivalent of 'Professional Engineer' status.

Now there may be an argument that I'm referencing anecdotes not data, and that they are isolated cases or that true engineers that went through apprenticeships are a dying breed... but I'll need some convincing.

Additionally many of the gread engineers of yesteryear didn't necessarily go the degree route etc.

thread730-152809 was one previous effort - search functionality seems to be playing up or I'd give more.

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[woodman88]

SNORGY
If you stop at (1. Engineering Degree approved by ABET?) and do / state nothing else, that would solve a lot.

Then you do not think that a national/state test is required to be an engineer?

Because if a test is required than anybody should be allowed to take it, after meeting some minimum requirements.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[SNORGY]

It would solve A LOT ... not EVERYTHING.

Guys and gals, understand that I see the world through glasses that are tinted to a shade reflective of my own biases.

You haven't lived until a non-engineer steals your credentials and masquerades as "you", since she / he has none of her / his own, and lived through the damage that THAT causes.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I'm a bit lost as to what kind of "status" people are after. And why. Nobody who's not a real engineer (whatever that means) is likely to steal my job. Nobody I might meet in my local boozer (or at a school reunion) cares whether I have the right degree or not to call myself an engineer. It only matters where it matters - among peers, including suppliers, employers and customers. I've given up trying to explain to my mum what I do for a living and my wife just used to refer to it as "work".

It would be nice if the careers advice people in schools knew where an obsession with STEM subjects might take an unusually brainy and introverted kid.


- Steve

 

[woodman88]

SNORGY
"You haven't lived until a non-engineer steals your credentials and masquerades as "you", since she / he has none of her / his own, and lived through the damage that THAT causes."


How is having a degree going to stop someone from stealing your credentials?

The only thing that can help is having your picture attached to your PE license on the states board of engineering. Even than you would need people to check the web site to verify that it is you.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[SNORGY]

A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has a degree in veterinary medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she has a degree in education.

Sorry, folks - in my books, an engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering.

I am not saying that there aren't a bunch of smart folks who probably *could* do what engineers do; there *are*. The issue is whether or not it ought to be allowed, let alone encouraged. I personally don't believe it should be. I believe that by not restricting the title, we are only contributing towards the erosion of the profession, and that the further we allow that erosion to proceed, the more meaningless the word "engineering" will become.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Reminds me of when as a freshmen at my old alma mater, we learned that students there were often referred to as 'toots' by the local townspeople. The legend goes that when the State of Michigan first established the school in 1885 and announced that it was going to train 'engineers', the local people thought that they meant the 'engineers' who operated locomotives, thus the nickname 'toots'. Well, it makes for a great story ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[woodman88]

SNORGY
"...Sorry, folks - in my books, an engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering....
....I believe that by not restricting the title, we are only contributing towards the erosion of the profession, and that the further we allow that erosion to proceed, the more meaningless the word "engineering" will become."


Real funny.
Look you really look at what was required to be an engineer in the pass (at least in California) you would find that the "erosion of the profession" is occuring as the requirements to get a PE increases.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[moltenmetal]

For professional licensure here in Ontario: you either have a degree from an accredited university, or you write ten three-hour technical "challenge" examinations. Pass those, and nobody cares where or even if you went to school. To me, that's fair. I don't give a rat's hind end about "definitions" beyond this very functional one, based on knowledge of fundamentals.

We don't bother making all grads write the three ten-hour examinations. Instead we accredit programs at institutions, both locally and internationally. Your program or institution isn't on the list? Based on an interview, you are assessed one or more of those three hour exams. Some people don't think that's fair, but I do. It's certainly more efficient than making everyone write the same exam. Even if you did that, some people would think that the ones who wrote the exam fresh out of school had an unfair advantage over anyone coming in from abroad.

At that point, an immigrant engineer can obtain a provisional license- something that says to employers that they've met the criteria for licensure but lack the 1 year of mentored experience required to grant them a license. That gives employers some comfort, because at least the licensure body has some familiarity with the 2000 or so degree-granting institutions worldwide, and which ones are frauds and which ones actually give legitimate engineering degrees, whereas few if any employers could have a real command of that subject and hence would simply prefer locally-educated folks. Even if an immigrant cannot get a license, they can still get a job as an engineer under an employer who has a Certificate of Authorization (i.e. a patsy engineer willing to take "professional responsibility" for all the professional engineering work done by that firm), or an employer who is working under the so-called "industrial exemption" which still hasn't been repealed here. But in both of those cases, they have no right to the title "engineer", and if they use it they are subject to fines and other enforcement action. So they get called other things: "designer", "project manager", or just have business cards saying "B.A.Sc. mechanical engineering" (which, if factual, cannot be argued with irrespective of how disreputable the degree granting institution may be).

The reality is, we get thousands of immigrants every year who feel they have every right to practice engineering here and call themselves engineers the moment they arrive. Some of them are amongst the very best engineers in the world- and they don't have a problem obtaining a license by and large, though they may not like the process and the time it takes. Some of them couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag, which of course can be said of some local grads. Others are frauds- they have no real degree or knowledge, they are just looking to get a career here through a "Catch Me If You Can" trick.

 

[SNORGY]

As moltenmetal points out, there are alternative paths to licensure as a Professional Engineer in this country.

woodman88 (and others), I certainly mean no disrespect to you or your opinion, since I cannot speak from a position of strength about how things work in the USA or the UK, whereas you probably can.

The problem that I have with this issue, and I do believe that it occurs to varying extents on both sides of the border and on both sides of the Atlantic, is that through soft legislation and our subconscious, gracious tolerance of what we are allowing the public at large to do / say about us, we are making it far too easy for unqualified or unscrupulous individuals to short-cut the qualification process and call themselves "engineers" when they really are not worthy of the title. I know of a number of technologists (and, in fact, high school graduates) who would claim that "...we are just as good as, in fact better than, engineers because we have more hands-on practical sense..." and all the rest of that tripe. I know a great many more, by contrast, who know when things are getting to the point where what they are undertaking is better left in the hands of those with the higher - yes HIGHER - level of credentials, namely, a Professional Engineer.

I aced my fetal pig dissection and examination in high school with a perfect score. That doesn't mean I am qualified as a veterinary surgeon.

moltenmetal alludes to frauds and stops just short of opening the topic of diploma mills. I have seen one of those "engineers" first hand as well; this one was well into a 20+ year career before being found out. How does that happen? Well...it does.

In my Province, the profession is self-regulated. Therefore, the only people who can put a stop to this kind of nonsense is us - the engineers. With each passing year, I become more appalled and disenchanted with the observation that we are doing the exact opposite, and encouraging the "inclusivity" to the point where the "profession" is becoming nothing more than a growing mob of non-credentialed non-professionals. It is beyond disturbing.

Maybe we should just hand them a beaver stamp and force them to use it. That would weed out a good number of them.

 

[IRstuff]

Lawn Doctors, beware, they're coming after you next!

TTFN
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[DistCoop]

I've always felt the argument:

A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
An engineer isn't an engineer until he or she has a degree in engineering.

isn't quite valid. A lawyer and medical doctor get a BS degree in whatever, then go to law and medical school. An engineer just requires a bachelors degree. The comparison isn't quite fair. I understand your frustration certainly, but to say someone with a BS in chemistry doesn't know enough to be a chemical engineer, or a BS in physics doesn't know enough to be a mechanical engineer, I would argue isn't so.

I like the idea of requiring a test for licensure, but allowing a broad level of education (say a 4 year science/engineering/technology degree) to sit for the exam.

 

[TenPenny]

California does NOT require a degree to become a lawyer. There may be other states that have the same or similar rules.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Perhaps, but you do need to pass a state exam to practice law in California.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[TenPenny]

While that's true, I was responding to this:

A medical doctor is not a medical doctor until he or she has a degree in medicine.
A veterinarian is not a veterinarian until he or she has a degree in veterinary medicine.
A lawyer is not a lawyer until he or she has a degree in law.
A teacher is not a teacher until he or she has a degree in education.
----------------
We know that teachers do NOT need a degree in education.
We know that lawyers do NOT need a degree in law.

Why do people make claims that are demonstrably false in order to support an argument? It doesn't help the argument if 50% or more of your examples are false.

 

[KENAT]

Honestly, that's the kind of thing you'd expect from an MBA.;-)

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[MacGruber22]

TenPenny,

You are right in finding the flaw in that logic. There has to be a better way to argue the point.