Engineer? 30

[MacGruber22]

Nearly every time I get into a career/job conversation with a few of my friends I find it interesting how they hold so tightly onto job title definitions that have nothing or little to do with engineering. They didn't go to engineering school, they don't know how to solve even the most basic static force system (in any engineering discipline), can't revolve a vector into components, etc. etc... Yet, they are continually offended that I make the claim that their title should be stripped of containing the word "engineer".

Is this an issue worth defending? If "yes", what is the most sound way to argue the point?

 

[SNORGY]

http://counselling.athabascau.ca/lawyer.php

http://www.cvu-uvc.ca/HowToBecomeaTeacher.htm

Maybe there is a flaw in my logic simply because I am Canadian.

My last post. Thanks guys.

 

[IRstuff]

There's been a continuing assertion about non-degreed "Sanitation Engineers" as somehow "diminshing" whatever cachet PEs might have ever had in the eyes of the public, but what the argument fails to recognize is that requiring licensing of ALL engineers would mean that about 4x more engineers would suddenly sprout out of the woodwork to get licenses, many of them currently "enjoying" their industrial exemptions, while others are completely out of the scope of the supposed intent of the PE laws, i.e., what would be the purpose of requiring moi to be licensed, given that I have zero, and possibly, less than zero interaction with the public, aside from building weapons of mass destruction?

So, two points:
> All those currently industrially exempt CEs, SEs, EEs, and MEs will become licensed and will be able to compete with the existing pool of PEs, and if anyone thinks that that their compensation is being adversely affected now, just wait until then.
> PE laws are written with "In order to safeguard life, health, property, and public welfare" as the purpose, nothing in there about protecting the profession; it's all about protecting the public. That makes dinking around with the law to do the former is inappropriate and mostly doomed to fail.

TTFN
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[CheckerHater]

Sorry, just couldn't pass this by:

 

[iceworm]

Who owns the title "Engineer"?
well, train drivers, heavy equipment operators, steam plant operators - yep, all called "engineers". The rest of us nerds are just tag-a-longs.

US, Alaska State law, (probably the same for most states - following the model codes) engineering for hire requires a PE ticket. A university degree is not required. As I recall (that's code meaning I don't remember the exact requirements):
Degree from an accredited university, four years experience, including two years with responsible charge, FE exam (8 hours), PE exam (8 hours)

With no degree from an acredited university, 8 years(? - I think) experience, 2 years responsible charge, FE and PE exams.

If one works for the company, then they can do engineering for that company - some restrictions on public access facilities, waste water, and drinking water systems. The company can make anybody they want an engineer.

Me? PE, EA, some other alphabet soup. I design as little as I possibly can. I have no anamosity toward design engineers - without them I'd have made a lot less money.

I work with plenty of engineers who's main job is keeping track of the budget. Do they have a degree in engineering? I think most do. But so what? I think the owners would have been as well off hiring acountants - or better yet, promoted up smart bookkeepers.

And - I remind myself that I was not one bit better the day after I got my PE than I was the day before. My super power makes the money - the PE ticket just gets my foot in the door. And the regulators like the PE ticket. They think it means I know what I'm talking about - adds credulence.

As already said, when I'm showing out, I tell all I'm a grade A nerd - electrical grade A, none better ~

ice

Harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction

 

[MrHershey]

Depends on your jurisdiction, but many start their licensure laws on a model law (like NCEES's) and then change from there.

If they left something like the below in there, technically it's illegal and anybody who does it can be fined. I'd imagine it's rarely enforced other than people actually practicing engineering and claiming to be an engineer when they're not. And even then, probably not often. Most jurisdictions will modify their law to clarify that it only applies to unlicensed people purported to be 'professional engineers' or 'consulting engineers' or whatever. Think Illinois is like this. Looks like California is too from a brief glance. Looking at Texas's, looks like they give outs for new grads who are working under engineers (so they can have 'engineer' in their job title) so long as they are degreed from an ABET accredited institution, NASA employees, and utility companies. But don't allow people who maintain mechanical equipment (usually called 'building engineers') to use the title.

NCEES's model law states:
150.30 Grounds for Disciplinary Action
—
Unlicensed Individuals
A.
In addition to any other provisions of law, the board shall have the power to fine and recover costs
from any unlicensed individual who is found guilty of:

1.
Engaging in the practice or offer to practice of engineering or surveying in this jurisdiction without being licensed in accordance with the provisions of this Act

2.
Using or employing the words “engineer,” “engineering,” “surveyor,” “surveying,” or any modification or derivative thereof in his or her name or form of business activity except as licensed in this Act

[URL unfurl="true"]http://cdn3.ncees.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Model_Law_2014.pdf[/url]

 

[loki3000]

eh, a lot of engineers can't calculate a lot more then a simple statics or strength of materials task, once they are a couple years from school (10).
some are even afraid to calc anything, because they will be responsible for that.
i has a degree, not to worry.

 

[hydroman247]

As a UK engineer without a degree, I like to be called an engineer and I call myself one but when it comes to safety critical stuff, I think everyone agrees they need to be signed off by qualified engineers. Squabling over the use of the term seems pointless since the word is so vague and covers jobs from software development to boiler repair to designing a skyscraper.

 

[MacGruber22]

eh, a lot of engineers can't calculate a lot more then a simple statics or strength of materials task, once they are a couple years from school (10).
some are even afraid to calc anything, because they will be responsible for that.
i has a degree, not to worry.

I am sorry, but nothing you have said above makes sense.

hydroman247 - you "like" to be called an engineer. That is a problem - it seems you have decided that it sounds better to call yourself that, rather than to acknowledge that you may have a tough time qualifying yourself as such. And your logic about the vagueness - I don't buy that the current status quo SHOULD be accepted as such. That is a lazy way of thinking. The point, to me, is that the word is being hijacked in so many fields for the same reason you give - they "like" to be called an engineer. Microsoft "likes" to call their people engineers, because it gives the customers a nice fuzzy feeling that they are dealing with a high caliber, qualified, and competent person. Of course the clients require and deserve those qualities - but, why does that require using the word "engineer"?

I'd "like" to be called a materials expert and a thin and in-shape guy. Call yourselves what you are, not what you want to be.

 

[woodman88]

Being an engineer (PE) is kind of meaningless (except for the money) to me. I have tried to report PE's to the state boards and the states boards do nothing. Not even a slap on the wrist. So I say just take what money you can.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[IRstuff]

We need to get over ourselves. There are only about 500k licensed engineers and only about 2M engineers in total, in the US. There are about 330M of them. Playing this elitist card is just not going to happen. We make 2 times more than almost all them and we do things that they can't even being to understand; where are you going to get the sympathy vote out of that? You're the 1% in this case; they want those titles to knock you down a notch.

TTFN
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[brandonbw]

One of my credit cards says Dr and yet I am not one, so it is. It sure gets a different response when paying for something.

I have plenty of non engineer friends that use the term engineer loosely. I laugh to myself when they say it since only Architects and Engineers will make it clear if they are not licensed in conversation. I asked my partner if he wanted PE on his business card? He laughed and said no, why? If you want the title don't become an engineer. I just want to be called rich and happy.

B+W Engineering and Design | Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

 

[dicksewerrat]

I just say I work with sewers.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[msquared48]

Dick:

Your comment stinks.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[JackAction]

It is pretty simple in my province, it's the law:

32. No person shall claim in any manner to be an advocate, notary, physician, dentist, pharmacist, optometrist, veterinary surgeon, agrologist, architect, engineer, land-surveyor, forest engineer, chemist, medical imaging technologist, radiation oncology technologist or medical electrophysiology technologist, denturologist, dispensing optician, chiropractor, hearing-aid acoustician, podiatrist, nurse, acupuncturist, bailiff, midwife, geologist or chartered professional accountant, or use one of the above titles or any other title or abbreviation which may lead to the belief that he is one, or initials which may lead to the belief that he is one, or engage in a professional activity reserved to the members of a professional order, claim to have the right to do so or act in such a way as to lead to the belief that he is authorized to do so, unless he holds a valid, appropriate permit and is entered on the roll of the order empowered to issue the permit, unless it is allowed by law.

The prohibition relating to the use of any titles, abbreviations or initials mentioned in the first paragraph or in an Act constituting a professional order extends to the use of such titles, abbreviations and initials in a feminine form.

You don't need a degree, only to be a member of the professional order recognized by the government (there is only one for each profession); although it might be difficult to be accepted without one. For engineers, when you apply for the permit, you have to use the title «Junior Engineer» for at least 2 years where you can perform activities reserved by law for engineers, but only under the immediate supervision and direction of an engineer. Then you can apply for your Enginner's permit.

What is an Engineer? Again there's a law, the Engineers Act, where it says:

PRACTICE OF THE ENGINEERING PROFESSION

2. Works of the kinds hereinafter described constitute the field of practice of an engineer:

(a) railways, public roads, airports, bridges, viaducts, tunnels and the installations connected with a transport system the cost of which exceeds $3,000;

(b) dams, canals, harbours, lighthouses and all works relating to the improvement, control or utilization of waters;

(c) works of an electrical, mechanical, hydraulic, aeronautical, electronic, thermic, nuclear, metallurgical, geological or mining character and those intended for the utilization of the processes of applied chemistry or physics;

(d) waterworks, sewer, filtration, purification works to dispose of refuse and other works in the field of municipal engineering the cost of which exceeds $1,000;

(e) the foundations, framework and electrical and mechanical systems of buildings the cost of which exceeds $100,000 and of public buildings within the meaning of the Public Buildings Safety Act (chapter S-3);

(f) structures accessory to engineering works and intended to house them;

(g) temporary framework and other temporary works used during the carrying out of works of civil engineering;

(h) soil engineering necessary to elaborate engineering works;

(i) industrial work or equipment involving public or employee safety.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 2; 1973, c. 60, s. 2.

3. The practice of the engineering profession consists in performing for another any of the following acts, when they relate to the works mentioned in section 2:

(a) the giving of consultations and opinions;

(b) the making of measurements, of layouts, the preparation of reports, computations, designs, drawings, plans, specifications;

(c) the inspection or supervision of the works.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 3.

4. For the works described in paragraph e of section 2, an engineer may not do any of the acts contemplated in paragraph b of section 3 without the collaboration of an architect unless they relate to an existing building and do not alter its form.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 4.

5. Nothing in this Act shall:

(a) affect the rights of a person entitled to practise as an architect, provided that he has the collaboration of an engineer for the works contemplated by paragraph e of section 2, nor shall it prevent him from collaborating with an engineer who requires his services for the other works contemplated by the said section;

(b) affect the rights of the members of the Ordre professionnel des technologues professionnels du Québec or prohibit the execution by a member of that order of any work for which he has been trained in the schools or institutes which give the technical course governed by the Specialized Schools Act (chapter E-10) or in the colleges established pursuant to the General and Vocational Colleges Act (chapter C-29);

(c) deprive members of the Ordre des ingénieurs forestiers du Québec of the right to use the title of forest engineer and to practise their profession within the field reserved to them by an Act of Québec;

(d) affect the rights of land surveyors in their legally recognized field;

(e) prevent urbanists, agronomists and professional chemists from practising their profession in the field assigned to them by any law;

(f) prevent any person from practising the profession of chemist, bacteriologist, geologist or physicist or from doing anything related to prospecting for minerals;

(g) affect the rights enjoyed by the members of the Corporation of Master Pipe-Mechanics of Québec and the Corporation of Master Electricians of Québec, under the Acts which govern them;

(h) restrict the normal practice of his art or trade by a mere artisan or skilled workman;

(i) prevent any person from carrying out or supervising works as owner, contractor, superintendent, foreman or inspector when such works are carried out under the authority of an engineer;

(j) prevent an employee from doing for his employer anything contemplated in paragraph b of section 3, under the immediate direction of an engineer who affixes his signature and seal in the cases contemplated by section 24 and his signature in the cases contemplated by section 25;

(k) prevent the holder of a diploma awarded by the Université du Québec on the completion of the program of studies for a bachelor's degree in technology at the École de technologie supérieure, or the holder of an equivalent diploma from the Université du Québec, from executing works for which he has been prepared by the education he has received. Nothing in this paragraph diminishes the rights vested by the Professional Code (chapter C-26) in the holder of any such diploma;

(l) prevent a person from performing acts reserved for members of the Order, provided he performs them in accordance with the provisions of a regulation adopted pursuant to paragraph h of section 94 of the Professional Code.

R. S. 1964, c. 262, s. 5; 1973, c. 60, s. 3; 1975, c. 80, s. 33; 1977, c. 5, s. 229; 1980, c. 12, s. 9; 1984, c. 47, s. 64; 1993, c. 38, s. 7; 1994, c. 40, s. 336.

 

[GregLocock]

It's pretty simple in my country:

Nobody gives a monkey's.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[KENAT]

There you go MacGruber22, move to Quebec & avoid Australia.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[ScottyUK]

Re. JackAction's list above: can anyone explain what a "forest engineer" is, and why do they appear to need a category distinct from every other type of mainstream engineering?

 

[IRstuff]

kind of makes sense, given what damage an ill-timed or poorly planned pre-emptive brush-clearing burn can accidentally do. Or, poorly planned forestry roads and fire-breaks.

But, why is bailiff on the list? In the US, I think they're usually deputy sheriffs. I see that in Canada, they can be private companies; interesting.

TTFN
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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[TenPenny]

A forest engineer is sort of a combination civil engineer and biologist, I'm not sure why they specifically call out that discipline as opposed to any other.

When I was in school, the forest engineering students generally were the hardest partiers, great bunch to spend time with.

 

[fegenbush]

I think the reason that Forest Engineer is specifically named is due to the extent of the forestry industry in Quebec. After some investigation, an industry group reports that the industry accounts for 2.3% of the GDP of Quebec. It is likely that such a prominent industry has significant lobbying efforts to put such things in place.