Engineering Degree 8

[Theasy]

I started as a draftsman and worked my way up to managing a group of engineers and designers for multi million dollar projects. I have been in this business for 30 years in the office and in the field. The company I work for is very prestigious and pays me well. This, I am sure, is based upon my experience and proven track record over time.
I had an interview with an equally prestigious company. It was a management position very similar to what I am doing now (and have been for almost 7 years). The position did call for an engineering degree with 8+ years experience. I sent my resume in, which does state that I have credits towards a B.S. degree, but never alludes to anything further in that regard. I was telephoned screened by the engineering manager and asked to come in for a face to face. I flew to their location (at their expense) and was initially interviewed by H.R. who asked me why was I applying for the position without a degree???? This somewhat confounded me as I was screened and appeared to be a good match. My question to you is: What does a degree get you that 30 years of progressive experience and a proven track record of success does not??

 

[JAE]

I would think it may depend entirely on two things:

1. The nature of the position.
2. The view of the company as to whether the degree (and perhaps the ability to get licensed) is a key ingredient in your ability to not only DO the job, but SELL the job to clients.


For the first item, if the position includes your efforts to do quality review, design calculations, and other more technical things, I think that they may have the sense that only a degree'd engineer could do this...they are looking for some semblance of credentials that prove to them that you can do these things.

For the second one, they may just WANT a degreed engineer in that position for the outside world to see and know that they have degreed engineers doing the work.

In either case, their reasons may be not so great if you are indeed able to do the work, check the work, have the knowledge, etc. which 30 years of experience can probably develop. The only thing I list above that could be a big roadblock would be the licensing - some places may still have licensure by experience (vs. degree) but that is fast going away.

In your case, you probably have to do some inovative selling of yourself to get by this initial roadblock.

 

[jsummerfield]

Many states have a path to getting a PE license with some degree but without an engineering degree. Few states are likely to have a path to obtain PE registration with no degree.

A degree does not automatically make someone a better candidate for a job. An engineering degree may provide an understanding of concepts that are not learned on a drafting table or while preparing engineering specifications. It is common for engineers to be managed by non engineers.

Perhaps in a manner like an Eagle Scout award, often obtaining a degree simply indicates the completion of an accomplishment. Within our culture and to a greater degree in other cultures, obtaining a degree is simply a measureable requirement.

John

 

[TheTick]

In Wisconsin, it is possible to get a P.E. without a degree, but you MUST pass the test.

I have a friend who is a college professor that teaches a course for non-degreed people who wish to pass the P.E. exam. It is a challenge.

Perhaps in a manner like an Eagle Scout award, often obtaining a degree simply indicates the completion of an accomplishment.

In my experience, "school of hard knocks" engineers are usually woefully short on math skills and understanding of even basic physics and chemistry, statics and dynamics, and materials science. For every "can't learn that in school", there is an equal or greater number of "shoulda learnt that in school"'s.

One thing I have noticed, at least in the mechanical design field, is that mechanical engineers seem to be generally under-employed and/or under-challenged to perform actual engineering tasks.

"Customer satisfaction, while theoretically possible, is neither guaranteed nor statistically likely.--E.L. Kersten

http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

 

[jsummerfield]

"school of hard knocks" engineers are usually woefully short on math skills and understanding of even basic physics and chemistry, statics and dynamics, and materials science.

If I had to do any math beyond 9th grade algebra I would have to call my son (in grad school). Rarely do we apply serious math.

I have hired non degreed engineers. I reject resume's that reflect a diploma mill degree.

John

 

[EddyC]

Theasy,

I think that you misunderstood their question about why you are applying without a degree. I think that the question was posed to see how you would react to it. They wanted to rattle your cage and see what falls out. They also wanted to see if you could explain why you think that you are qualified for the position.

I have had all kinds of strange questions asked to me on just about every job interview that I have had. Think about the movie Star Trek 2, specifically the "Kobiashi Maru" test. Their was no solution to it. It was a test of character.

Good Luck with your job hunting.

 

[VeryPicky]

Theasy
To explain my position: I am a graduated engineer.
In my career on three continents I came across all kinds of managers. The worst possible case (in my opinion) is an engineer, who had nowhere else to go but management. I found some of those people so occupied doing their subordinates' work that the life around ther was a nightmare. The engineering degree does not mean that anyone is capable to lead people. It takes time and whole bunch of growing up.

I agree with JAE that the company might just WANT an engineer for that position. It is their right and you should not be discouraged by that. On the other hand there may be a legal requirement. But this is not my message to you. I am sure you have been invited to a number of interviews in your career and you know that what is tested there is sometimes more technical but "they" ALWAYS check how you would fit in their organization. Just be yourself in an interview. If you don't fit, believe me, you don't want to be there. Do your best and keep looking.

"leaders have followers, supervisors have subordinates..."

Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering

 

[TheTick]

If I had to do any math beyond 9th grade algebra I would have to call my son (in grad school). Rarely do we apply serious math.
I have hired non degreed engineers.

Like I implied, most mechanical engineering positions aren't really engineering at all, based on the demands placed on the engineers and the definition of engineering.

 

[Tobalcane]

<<<What does a degree get you that 30 years of progressive experience and a proven track record of success does not??>>>

In my opinion, having the degree will give you more credibility than a person that does not have one. I hate using the doctor analogy, but it seems to show how “you” would pick a professional over another.

I think it was 20/20 who did a report on doctors that did breast augmentation. The study was on how far women would go to get this service. 20/20 shadowed two doctors one in the USA and one in Mexico; the one in the USA achieved his medical degree and the one in Mexico did not. Both practice for like 15 years, but the one in the USA is much more expensive than the one in Mexico. To make a long story short, the women who can afford the USA doctor were very satisfied with the work the doctor did, even though it cost more. But, for the women who could not afford the American doctor went to Mexico and had a nightmarish experience because the pseudo doctor was not knowledgeable to medical college level, his knowledge was only from his experience over the 15 years of experimenting. So the moral of the investigation is don’t go to doctors that don’t have the proper credentials.

So the analogy is that for companies to hire engineers, a degree shows that this person was trained properly for the field that they are practicing in. For the non degree people, they have been really been experimenting over the years.




Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[IRstuff]

Sure, but Zenger-Miller always teaches that you don't need to be an engineer to manage engineers. (I personally think that's a load of crock.)

However, in some cases, that's actually a benefit, since the manager won't get drawn into design issues and can maintain the big picture.

I've seen GM's and EngVP's start rambling on about design issues and attempting to solve the problem during a meeting. Talk about a waste of time.

TTFN

 

[TheTick]

It's one thing to achieve a management position by rising up through company ranks and managing a group of people you are familiar with in a culture that formed you and perhaps you helped form. It's a very different thing to step into an entirely new company and face processes, products, people, and corporate culture that are all new in some way. This is where it becomes more important to have a solid academic background in both leadership/management and engineering.

As for your prospective employer's query, it seems alomost nonsensical. Obviously, somebody somehere saw enough potenetial to make it worth their expense to bring you out. If you made no secret about your lack of degree, it shouldn't even be a question. If you deliberately obscured this fact, shame on you for trying and shame on them for not noticing.

 

[jsummerfield]

Let’s draw an organizational chart. Today we can start at the bottom and work upward.

I work in a specific discipline. As with many engineering groups mine is a matrix organization. For my daily work I report to a lead in my discipline. However a department manager hires and fires in my discipline. I will draw a box for my manager with a dotted line to another person who also reports to my manager.

The row with my manager includes about six discipline managers who all report to a design engineering manager. There is also a dotted line with an administrator for support who reports to the design engineering manager.

So far you can expect the hierarchy to be engineers. In some organizations there may be a separate drafting/design/CAD box. This box likely reports to the engineering manager but is not necessarily managed by an engineer.

The next level up includes design engineering as one box among many. The other boxes may include safety, QA/QC, accounting, business development, environmental, office services, safety, technical library, information technology, construction, procurement or assorted other service groups other than engineering. These boxes may report to an operations manager. This may be an engineer. However, it is as likely to be from finance, legal or construction.

Legal reports to the next higher level in the organization. By now it is not likely that they are engineers. But in the hierarchy, ultimately and indirectly I report to each person above me on the organizational chart.


John

 

[EngJW]

Maybe they were looking for 30: not 30 years but 30 years old (degree + 8 years?). They must have thought you were worth considering, until they got you there and discovered your age. It may sound far-fetched, but the same thing happened to me. I had a good interview with several people in engineering and was just about promised the job but HR shot it down. The give-away is when they ask what year you graduated high school.

John Woodward

 

[buzzp]

EddyCs comments are probably right on. They were just trying to see your response to this question rather than it being a show stopper. Why else would they fly you in? Unless, the HR department failed to see that you had no degree. Then you just had a nice little trip for nothing.

Society puts value on degrees. Because of this, they look for degrees as primary evidence that you know what your doing (or should know what your doing).

Any education program can be done in the privacy of ones home provided you have the drive to plug your way through many books and work out many problems. College just makes you more disciplined to learn the material, thats all. It is nothing you can not learn on your own, with time and with the right materials.

 

[JAE]

VeryPicky's point that many engineers are awful managers is a common theme and corresponds to jsummerfield's comments about how an organization hires and promotes up from its ranks to fill management positions with engineers.

However bad many engineers are at management, there are still many engineers who do rise up through years of "technical" experience and eventually do become very good managers.

For every poor engineer who serves as a manager, I could probably point out a poor manager who is not an engineer and tries to manage other engineers. Mediocraty is everywhere but many times the cream does rise to the top.

 

[Theasy]

Group,

I appreciate the insight. I truly suspect the question was posed due to H.R.'s ignorance of my resume as they were never involved in the screening process and also the next time the question was posed to me (the 5th interview of the day with another engineering manager of a similar division), it was to get a reaction. When I posed the question about 30 years of experience versus a degree, he got defensive and stated I am not here to debate it, but just wanted to know what I told H.R. So, perhaps the point is moot, as my response put him on his heels a little and either he crossed me off the list or he liked the fact that I was willing to challenge the "norm". I will let you know.
As for those who feel that no degree is an indication of academic porwess and ultimately a base to ensure "technical understanding", I say that is a load of B.S. as I am sure you can all point to the academic within your ranks that couldn't engineer thier way out of a paper bag!!!!

 

[cilogistics]

Hi

I think Degree is nothing but the evaluation of person.In 1 or 2 hours interview of job they can't find all credibility to do job.so thats why they acknowledge the degree as a measure of doing the job.

However, there are many graduates who don't get job without experience.AS experience does matter lot than a degree.

Shil

 

[IRstuff]

Why is that so? Just because someone managed to put in 30 yrs is no guarantee of anything beyond what a BS might imply.

There are those who have "experience" who can't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag.

Consider the criticality of hiring someone to do a job as being comparable to getting married. Would you marry someone after a single 8-hr interview?

TTFN

 

[Tobalcane]

<<<As for those who feel that no degree is an indication of academic porwess and ultimately a base to ensure "technical understanding", I say that is a load of B.S. as I am sure you can all point to the academic within your ranks that couldn't engineer thier way out of a paper bag!!!!>>>

This is not the comment of a professional who has 30 years of management experience. Is this the best argument that you have to make a decision between two people that has the same type of experience but one has a degree? Instead of lashing out, can you give me a reason why a person “with out” a degree with 30 years of experience is better over a person that “has” a degree (and maybe a MBA to boot) and has the “same” 30 years of experience?

Please don’t take this comment the wrong way, but as a professional rebuttal to your comment.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[SlideRuleEra]

A former boss pointed out that there is a big difference between a person with "30 years experience" and "1 year of experience, 30 times".