engineering outlook for us young guys 19

[kchida]

I need opinions from experienced engineers. You guys have seen the short-term and long-term trends. Do you all notice a trend that might indicate that engineering will be a krappy choice of occupation in the coming decades? I've just come into the field, so my perspective is skewed.

I'm turning 25 in a month, so I have a good 40 years to go in my career (that's a whole lot longer than the amount of time I've been hanging out on this planet). I need some serious advice. Should I jump ship now and do something else besides engineering? This would require me to go back to school.

Medicine is strong in the states and will probably remain so, at least for my lifetime (maybe?). Well, what about biomedical engineering then? Could this possibly be a future engineering "oasis"?

Keep in mind that I have high expectations for my future standards of living. At the peak of my career, I'd like to maintain a lifestyle comparable to that of somebody today earning $200k (household), in Southern California. Again, this will be based on a dual-income, so I would need to be making at least half of that. I don't want my kids to grow up in a poor household. I want to ensure that they have access to things that I didn't have.

Seriously, should I defect to another field? Should I throw it all away, run and never look back? I think I'm good for at least 10 more years, but will I hit an unavoidable roadblock at that time. What would you do in my situation?

 

[kchida]

"If you are a electrical engineer in the area of Power generation and Power Transmission line, then what I have posted does not apply."

comcokid- do you forsee major projects in this area? I keep hearing people mention that the power grid system is archaic and is due for a major overhaul. Alternative energy and transmission methods really do excite me. If there's going to be a WWIII, I can bet that it'll be over energy. Unless, ITER comes through and sooner than expected.

"I guess you have rich friends or relatives who are not working at engineering field!"

liberoSimulation- yes, indeed. i'm surrounded by too many OC-bred yuppies (nice yuppies nontheless). Somehow, I ended up going to school with a bunch of rich kids from my high school. I should, however, mention that I know even more friends that are just barely floating.

"It's not that they are supernaturally smark, it's that they Love what they do, and want to know EVERYTHING about it. (that bores me, as I like being a generalist)."

wes- I wish that were true, but some of these people i speak of are beyond the product of hard work and motivation. They are really something else. I knew of this kid in high school that took the SATs in 9th grade and scored a 1600. He took community college math courses starting his freshman year because our high school didn't have classes beyond AP Calculus. I recall him studying tensors and manifolds in 11th grade. He jumped ship the end of his junior year and started his BS in Math at Harvard (with his credits he entered with a sophmore standing.) He pumped out his MS and he's now currently a post-doc at Berkeley. The odd thing is that he had an exceptionally high vocabulary and wrote so well. He was also into literature and plays. I came across a few people like this; I really wonder how they perceive the world. But yes, >95% of the brainiacs out there are products of hard work and self-motivation.

What I really dream of becoming is a successful inventor.(Note: the keyword here is 'dream', I can't possibly aim to become an inventor; it's such a shot in the dark). I really admire the likes of Bushnell and Warnock; ordinary guys that have done extraordinary things. If you guys have time you should read some bios on famous inventor's:

http://www.thetech.org/exhibits/online/revolution/

I read in numerous articles that most successful inventor's were driven by the prospects of making money. I'm getting the hunch that many of you believe that the desire for money is taboo, but I think that it is only natural, especially in a free market and capitalist society. It's how you spend your money that may spark controversy. If we don't earn the money, someone else will and they will most likely spend it on something that does nothing for our society/economy. I'm sure that we, as engineers, have enough brains to invest any excessive amounts of money into the right places, in order to better our society and strengthen our economy. Personally, I would much rather see money in the hands of engineers than a bunch of attorneys and business execs. All of you in this forum are talented people and you all do things that many others cannot. So why not command top dollar. Don't settle for crappy pay, because in the end we're just screwing ourselves (and the future generations of engineers). JMHO.

 

[Comcokid]

Kichida - My comment about Power Engineering was because I do not work in this area and do not know how good/bad it is. "Electrical Engineering" is a broad term encompassing a lot of different disciplines. One thing you can say about power generation - unless some new form of physics are developed power generation will remain onshore. The technology in this area does not change as fast as something like semiconductor fabrication.

In one way, I view my 25 year career in terms of the 1980 recession, mid-eighties economic slowdown, 1990 recession, dot-com implosion of 2001, etc. I remember the older engineers I started with talking about the late-60's end-of-Apollo era bust or SST cancellation of the early 70's. I have a brother-in-law Chemical engineer who remembers the mid-west oil crash of the late 80's. Some like to focus on skills needed to make large $$$$, but I have come to carefully protect the technical skills that will get me my next job. Different engineering professions require different long-term strategies. For Civil engineers, experience is important - for some Electrical engineers, experience is detrimental.

Engineering is not a crappy profession, but it is not insulated from economic ups-and-downs. You have to love what you do. Many of the rewards are getting you name on patents, publishing a paper, or looking at the product you designed in a magazine.

It's always hard to say what will be the next hot engineering discipline. 15 years ago people would talk about AI Software technology - this remains a obscure academic area. Certainly with recent DNA advances, Biomedical engineering will be big (or will it become more of a biological or medical area?)

Difficult to see, always in motion are the future... - Yoda

 

[macmet]

clearly you need to make 200K if you don't want kids to grow up in a poor household. Did you know the median household american salary was $44,389 (us census).

" I don't have enough fingers to count the number of pre-30's friends that I have, that make 90k and up."

Then you don't have enough fingers to count either the number of friends who either have really rich parents and given them ideal jobs or friends that lie about their salary. That's $45/hr essentially...

 

[RDK]

Back before you were born and I was in high school, we had a career day. The engineer who came to speak to us made a point that is still valid today.

Getting an engineering degree will always give you the means to put food on your table and have a roof over your head.

You may not become rich compared to some other professions, you may not even be as well paid in some cases as tradesmen but you will always be able to put food on the table and that table will be under a roof.

If you picked for example law there are lots of starving lawyers out there. They can only practice law and not much else. An engineer can work as an engineer or as a technician and has the foundation to be successful in many fields (business, operations management to name two.)

Add to that some other advice that I received in my graduating year, it really does not matter what you do for the first 15 years, and where you are at 40 years old is most likely where you will be for the remainder of your career.

I spent the first 15 years in government and then at age 38 started out on my own as a consultant doing construction management. Now 12 years later I am still doing that and do not see any drastic changes in what I do for the next 10 years until retirement.

Bottom line the gut wrenching decisions you are making today on one job or the other will really not matter that much in the long run. If you actually enjoy engineering then stick with it, you will find a place for your talents and interests. If you are finding that you do not enjoy engineering then give it up and use the base education to become successful in a field that you do enjoy.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[moltenmetal]

macmet: I don't think kchida's off the mark- rather, you're in denial about the income prospects of other professions. There are LOTS of things, most of them legal, that can earn a person a $90k + /yr salary before they're 30. kchida has listed quite a few of them.

Engineering ISN'T one of them.

I had two highschool classmates who graduated with optometry degrees the same year I finished my combined bachelors-masters in chem eng. One of them was the guy next to me in that imfamous first-year eng class where the prof says, "Look next to you- chances are, either you or your seatmate won't be here by graduation!". He took that hint seriously! Both of them spent exactly the same amount of time in school that I did and paid virtually identical tuition, graduating with their O.D.. Both of them earned starting salaries TWICE what I was able to command, and their salaries are still vastly greater than mine. The most harm these people can do is prescribe a pair of contacts that don't fit well, and the most stress they experience on a daily basis is writing a referral to an opthamologist so that HE can tell them they're going blind. Whereas if I screw up, people might die in a spectacular way that's likely to make the newspaper!

I wouldn't trade my job for theirs- engineering suits my aptitudes and interests much better than optometry ever would- and money isn't everything (unless you don't have enough of it to meet the basic necessities of life, then it truly IS EVERYTHING).

If things were right in the world, their job probably wouldn't be valued anywhere nearly as highly in dollar and cents terms as mine is- whereas the opthamologists' job probably WOULD be valued higher than mine. And I'd still be OK with that- I wouldn't want the guy cutting and sewing up my eyeballs to be worried about whether his rent cheque was going to bounce!

Quite frankly, I'd be far happier at TWICE the salary than I am now. It's not a matter of money per se, it's a matter of respect and value. If I were paid better, I might then feel that the stress and personal responsibility I endure as a consequence of my work were properly respected in the only terms that business values: dollars and cents. Then again, we engineers aren't the only profession who feels ripped off this way, and quite justly. Capitalist society assigns value to work in some strange and seemingly irrational ways.

Unlike many other professions, though, ours once WAS paid at a rate which properly respected our contribution to society and the economy. Ours did have such status AND compensation, fifty or sixty years ago. That's long gone now, and getting worse daily.

By all means, you dyed-in-the-wool engineers out there: please do what you love, but for the love of Pete PLEASE don't do it for a substandard salary because you love it so much! You're not doing the rest of us any favours by doing so.

 

[macmet]

Moltenmetal,

I totally agree it is possible to make that much as a pre30. But to imply it's common I totallly disagree with. I wonder what the ratio is of people who make less than 15/hr to those that make over 45/hr.

It would be nice to make a lot of money, but there are many people out there that would do anything for an engs salary.

 

[kchida]

"clearly you need to make 200K if you don't want kids to grow up in a poor household. Did you know the median household american salary was $44,389 (us census)."

macmet- yes I agree, 200k is big. This is not a realistic goal of mine, but it sure is a dream and at least in SoCal, it's really not a crazy excessive HOUSEHOLD income. Also, I never said that I desire to make 200k all by myself. At times, I wish I were less pragmatic and had delusions like this, because those that think big, get big result (not necessarily positive results though.) I'm already assuming that my fiance's income will quite possible be around 100k (she'll have her PhD in neuroengineering and has developed close relationships with MDs and Profs. Many of her professors have initiated start-ups during their sabaticals and some have found employment through them. A good example of this is Henry Samueli and Broadcom!)

So, essentially I'm aiming high and setting my goal to 100k, which I can attest is not an outrageous salary for some of my peers, here in SoCal (don't get so worked up, they are not swimming in money like you'd think.) They have average condos near their jobs that destroy their paychecks. Not to mention tax, SS, 401K, etc. They have school debt and they pretty much live like I do. Only difference is that I have trouble trying to save and invest, because all of my check goes to living expenses. So, for all you young bucks thinking of coming to Cali, you may want to think twice!

 

[kchida]

"Certainly with recent DNA advances, Biomedical engineering will be big (or will it become more of a biological or medical area?)"

comcokid- for the most part, Biomedical seems to be expanding in every direction, but not at a pace that stimulates me. I'm not sure if Nano will have a bigger impact on biomed or bioengineer, but there's definitely an apparent synergy that exist between the two. Some of the things that I've seen being researched at school are MEMS applications for biomed (i.e. lab-on-a-chip, implantable microactuators, retinal implants, etc.) Bioengineering, on the other hand, will always be largely life science based (i.e. no mech, not much electrical, etc.)

 

[liberoSimulation]

kchida
I think engineering is tough for you and not of interest to you as well as I felt from your posts.
An advice is to change your field now instead of being always dreaming of wealthy life and you are among challenges that you are not aware of.

Cheers

 

[kchida]

"I totally agree it is possible to make that much as a pre30. But to imply it's common I totallly disagree with."

Macmet- I don't think that my wording implied that this kind of salary, at such an early age, is common. But, if it did, I apologize for the misunderstanding and I hope it's all cleared up. Also, I'm know what the average income for the US is, as well as SoCal and Bay Area. In fact, my parents got by with under 30k (on average). Some years were better and in the mid-1990's I remember we only had like 20k or so. That's about when they filed for Ch.11 bankruptcy protection. I remember helping them out with some of the paperwork because of their limited english. Basically, it sucked and I'm perfectly aware of the average salary. But I really make it a point to disassociate my personal goals from everyone elses'. I make a conscience effort to rid myself of the low expectations I had growing up. When people have low expectations, it not only hurts the individual, but it hurts the rest of society as well.

 

[kchida]

"I think engineering is tough for you and not of interest to you as well as I felt from your posts.
An advice is to change your field now instead of being always dreaming of wealthy life and you are among challenges that you are not aware of."

libero- ahh..I was waiting for this reply. I can't generalize and say that all engineering positions are of equal difficulty. Mine happens to be very unchallenging (at least technically). In fact, I think I make more progress learning at home and at school. I enjoy what I do at home; obviously if I didn't I would simply do something else. However, I do wish that I had more resources and access to great technical mentors (something I can't do at home).

Now if I may, I'll ask you a few questions. Why do you assume that my lack of job satisfaction, stems from my inability to handle my "tough" job (which BTW is not true)? With all due respect, is this a way for you to boost your morale, by creating a fictitous mindset in which you have absolute intellectual supremecy over people in other fields, thereby negating any gripes about your job situation? My point is that engineers, in this society, are undervalued and underpaid. We are treated as a commodity. As a new engineer, I admit that my pay is great (considering my little experience), but I'm sure I won't feel the same way in 5~10 years. A free market and capitalistic society works bilaterally, engineers in such societies get paid what businessmen are willing to pay them; likewise, businessmen pay what engineers are willing to accept. Of all the professions out there, I think that engineers(in general) are least likely to counter their employer's initial offer.

Finally, I won't leave out a very important factor that really changes the rules of the game......globalization. We are actually in a position where our leverage (as American engineers) is diminishing. So now, are bargaining chips are disappearing before our eyes and our salaries will continue to decline. Our job security will keep plummeting.

So, I CAN handle the heat, but I'm thinking about leaving the kitchen cause the walls are caving in. As the great Chic Hearn once(always) said, "The eggs are coolin...the jello's jigglin, and the butter is getting hard."

 

[sms]

kchida: I believe you are wrong, I belive that opportunity for engineers will go through the roof in the next 20 years, and I believe salaries will follow. I am a third generation engineer, my Dad did better than his Dad, and I have done better than my Dad. I have far exceeded the magic 100K, and am quite comfortable.

But I also think your attitude is rotten, and I highly encourage you to start law school asap. You'll fit right in there.....besides, it sounds like you have already made up your mind regarding the future of engineering. Your pay is great but you are sure you won't feel the same way it 5-10 years? Why did you even bother to start this thread?

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[kchida]

sms- ouch! that one hurt (but I'll live).

I belive that opportunity for engineers will go through the roof in the next 20 years,

Well, I sure hope this is true too.

But I also think your attitude is rotten, and I highly encourage you to start law school asap. You'll fit right in there.....besides, it sounds like you have already made up your mind regarding the future of engineering. Your pay is great but you are sure you won't feel the same way it 5-10 years? Why did you even bother to start this thread?

On a serious note, I do apologize if I offended you (I'm being very sincere here, not being sarcastic). I just tend to discuss things openly and sometimes I step on some toes in the process. But, I truly believe that I need to find a solution to this anxiety. Also, I do admit that I'm not projecting a good attitude, but I'm really trying to counter it by trying to be constructive (not optimistic...I wish I could agree with the quote in your signature, but continuing with the path that I'm on now, my gut instincts just tell me otherwise). I HAVE observed that this thread isn't doing anyone any good, so I'll stop here (besides, it's not fun being "cannon fodder"). However, I will take my questions and advise-seeking elsewhere. FYI and with all due respect, I won't let some negative responses here stop me from pursuing my career goals and dreams.

Wes616, Comcokid, Moltenmetal, RDK, PSE (sorry if I'm missing anyone) - Thank you all for giving me some REAL advise and most of all, thank you for sharing your perspectives on this matter. Although I did sense some frustration from you guys too, you still kept it constructive. I truly appreciate it and I hope some young forum readers here, in the same situation as I am, can extract something useful from this thread (without whoring up this forum).

liberoSimulation, sms, macmet- No hard feelings to you all and no offense taken. Thank you for reading/responding and please (seriously) don't be offended by my words, as they were from my heart (but maybe a bit too passionate for an online forum).

Take care guys!

 

[davefitz]

Back to the original posting.

$200K household income in California? You can be pretty sure that most companies that need to hire engineers will follow GE's suggestion and set up engineering shop in cities with much lower cost of living requirements than California. If you want a future as an engineer in the USA, you would have better prospects looking in cities where the cost of a 3 br house is below $200K, and not over $750 K as in Kaleefornia.

As far as what field to get into, at the age of 25, you would need to think about what major social problems need to be addressed in the next 40 yrs. Energy issues , and the related issue of transportation, will require massive investments as well as disruptive social changes in the USA over the next 40 yrs, and that means the related technical issues will will require engineers to solve.

There is already occurring a major effort to replace retiring workers in the electric power industry and petroleum industries with new blood. If those efforts come up short, than those jobs or services would be outsourced to other countries with less of an age distribution unbalance, just like any other engineering job that can not be filled locally at a salary range that is judged to be economical, fair , or competitive.

 

[BillPSU]

One long term trend is movement toward medicine. Life enhancing devices such as artificial joints, dental devices, laser eye surgery and numerous other advances are a fact in today's world. Continuing development centers around extending life and enhancing life. This research includes very diverse areas starting with mechanical devices and proceeding onto bio-mechanical devices and will finally be replaced by artificial genetic engineered devices/organs/repairs. Manipulation of a person's DNA/RNA will probably cure cancer, AIDS, and the common cold. Will I see it in my lifetime? Probably not but you young engineers may. Life science engineering if I was young again is where I would like to be. An artificial pancreas is very close to being a reality.

 

[ScottyUK]

kchida,

A couple of opinions from over the water:

Power engineering is boomtown at present, and it looks to be getting better by the minute. Our industry was de-regulated about 15 years ago in the greatest act of sabotage ever perpetrated by a government against its people. Unemployment in the utilities was sky-high, 'downsizing' was the order of the day. Things have changed in the past ten years: few people study power engineering any more, and there are only a few places left to study it. There is a growing shortfall as the power engineers of my father's generation reach retirement and there is no one to replace them. The result is higher salaries and increased competition among employers.

You guys in the US just have no idea about high property prices. Trust me! House prices in the UK have risen about threefold since I bought my first house - a real dooer-upper - in the final months of the last century. You would not believe the struggle I went through with that house: I spent three months in winter without heating, just a sleeping bag and airbed on the floor. All the work I could legally do myself, I did myself because I couldn't afford to pay anyone. I had one tap, cold, in the garden. I would shower at work because I had no bathroom. My only electricity was a socket wired directly out of the old DB on the wall. Lighting was a pair of 500W industrial floodlamps. Meals were cooked on my little petrol stove. The hardship paid off though - I now have a big house which I couldn't ever have afforded without the sale of my first place. Don't be offended if I say I don't think you've experienced hardship yet.



----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

 

[cuky2000]

Dear colleagues,

The discussion in this forum is pretty much consistent with published statistical data. Here is a highlighted points and driving force in the engineering community.

o Career challenge is 6 times more important than money for most engineers.
o Paradoxically, there is a statistical tie among happy and unhappy engineers.
o One third of the engineering population are neutral regarding career satisfaction
o Average annual engineering salary in the US is around $60K to $70K.
o Entry-level annual starting salary is roughly $40K.
o Rate of salary increase around $10K to $15K every ten years.
o Salary in the US is roughly twice than in Europe and 5 times than Asia.
o Engineering salary increase primarily with the years of experience.
o The Asian population is the largest group pursuing engineering career in the US.
o Women, black and Hispanic engineer’s salary are lower than white and Asian colleagues are.
o Other salary factors are type of industry, discipline and geographical location.
o Higher degrees earn higher salary more notorious after several years of experience.
o BS salary level declines roughly after 30 years of experience. However, MS and PhD increase in time.

Most engineers fill optimistic with the future even thought there is concern regarding job security, increasing trend outsourcing, war, climate changes, etc.

For additional information see also the enclose link.

http://cuky2000.250free.com/Eng2.pdf

 

[Tobalcane]

Time to get my masters!

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[PZas]

Cuky2000

I am going to have to disagree with your information on salaries. From personal experience and all the salary cross sections I have ever seen your numbers are way low.

Where did that information come from?

For instance the average STARTING salary from my uni was over 50k/yr. This is in south central US (Texas).

 

[cuky2000]

The information obtained was based on average salary from different sources. Here are a few more sources:

http://jobsearchtech.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://

http://www.wageweb.com/eng1.htm

Entry level Info:

http://jobsearchtech.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://

http://www.graduatingengineer.com/interview/salaries.html