Engineering "boot camp" at universities should be a thing of the past 7

[josephv]

Last fall, I went to my 10 year university graduation reunion. Looking back, I am glad that I chose engineering as a career. I enjoy what I do for a living.

And although there were some aspects of my engineering education that I enjoyed at university, I have to admit that overall I was disappointed.

Sometimes, we need some distance to make an assessment. Now, I can look back at my engineering education and I can honestly say that it was the “boot camp” program in my university that I disliked.

“Boot camp” is le mot just, when you consider that approximately half of the students either failed or dropped out on the first year. To make matters worse, I sensed that many of the members of the academic staff were actually proud of this fact. Many students feel that the main goal of the university is to “weed out” students, instead of providing them with an education.

What did this outdated mentality accomplish, except turn young students away from our noble profession?

Unfortunately, too many universities and colleges still have “boot camp” programs in place. What I would like to see is university engineering programs that students can enjoy. Much can be done to make engineering school more appealing. For example, interesting design projects can be incorporated into courses.

Certainly, the programs should be challenging, but the outdated “weeding out” process must be a thing of the past. Our new generations will not buy into the old cliché that one must “pay your dues”.

An interesting fact that I learned at the reunion, was that many of the top students that had enjoyed this “boot camp” program, were selling mutual funds. And many of the students who truly enjoyed “the existential pleasures of engineering” (to quote from Samuel Florman), were working as engineers, designing, manufacturing and building things.

In the next five years we must say good bye to the old “boot camp” engineering school program, and put it in the dust bin where it belongs, and demand a better engineering education for future generations.

 

[josephv]

Thank you for your replies. Here are my replies to a couple of the postings.

ProEpro “Should it be easy to get a medical degree?”
”Many engineers have more lives in thier hands with one design than doctor will in his entire life.”

A “boot camp” University with an obstacle course curriculum does not make better engineers. Nor does it help promote safer designs. What I am advocating is the development of well rounded engineers with excellent communications and leadership skills. Technical Writing courses (e.g. memo writing 101) are not enough, and are typically quite dull. It is the liberal arts, specifically an understanding of philosophy and of our history that helps promote better communicators and leaders.

Unfortunately, our universities fail to grasp this simple concept and they continue to be stuck in the 1940’s.

Focht3 “The only thing engineers don't need is turning all their attention away from a well-rounded education. We need a good balance of letters, science and art. All science and no art makes for a very dull boy indeed.”

I completely agree. And I will add that all science and no art make a nerd engineer with poor communication skills. We do not need nerds; we need good communicators and good leaders.

Cbiber “The big thing I think should be taught is problem solving. Once you know how to do that, you can apply it to any subject; you just need to gain the appropriate background in the subject. But at my own prestigious alma mater, such a thing wasn't taught. You had to learn it by "sink or swim" in freshman physics, without even knowing that it was essential, and without being given any direction.”

This is an excellent idea. I agree there needs to be a freshman course on engineering problem solving.

Qshake “Often times I teach engineering mechanics classes and I am really surprised each semester how little interest some students have in the subject. Many expect you do to thier homework for them...I could go on and on. I make myself available to them at anytime of the day. I practically have to beg them to come to me with problems or to call and set up a time for extra work/help.”

This is a very problematic situation, and I do sympathize with you. However, rather than blaming the students, could the problem be that not enough is being done to attract better engineering students to our Universities?

 

[TheTick]

I am not an advocate of "weeding out" courses. My alma mater, Marquette University, also believes in giving all of its engineering students the chance to succeed. Additionally, their liberal arts requirements are higher than most state engineering schools.

I must, however, object to the term "boot camp". There is a definite difference between "weeding out" and "boot camp". "Weeding out" is simply a cheap attempt at scaring the timid away from a school that is too small to handle demand.

"Boot camp" is a training course designed to ensure the future success of recruits entering the military. Everything about boot camp is a calculated learning experience to imart necessary skills to a newcomer entering military life. Moreover, much of military training is a trial by fire experience which teaches the students to reach deep inside and find the strength (intellectual, spiritual, and physical) that they didn't know was there.

I believe engineering students and students in general need more boot camp-like experiences.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[josephv]

Mr. Tick,

Thank you for your reply. Here is the definition of boot camp from dictionary.com:

boot camp
n.
1- A training camp for military recruits.
2 - A correctional facility that uses the training techniques applied to military recruits to teach usually youthful offenders socially acceptable patterns of behavior.

I am referring to the second definition (i.e. not the military training).

The boot camp approach that is used to teach youthful offenders is not a good model for engineering students. In fact, I am not so sure it helps youthful offenders much either.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

[TheTick]

In either definition, I stand by what I wrote. Both are planned experiences with a very definite goal in mind. Also, both are planned with the future success of the "boots" in mind.

As far as "weeding out" goes, if the end result is students emerging with greater strength of character, then I don't care what the university's intent was.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[josephv]

Just because a boot camp is a "planned experience(s) with a very definite goal in mind" does not mean that it yields results or that it even works or that it helps develop better engineering students.

Sadly enough, the opposite is true. We are not developing students with "greater strength in character". But we are developing poor communicators instead of well rounded engineers.

Our profession is facing critical problems:

1) The perception that Engineers have poor communication skills

2) The lack of Engineers in leadership roles

3) The lack of women and minorities in Engineering

4) Unemployment and under employment

Sticking to the old school and putting our heads in the sand will not help. Our Engineering Educations is due for a major revamp.

 

[TheTick]

Sounds like someone who's been there only in video games and movies.

In spite of my alm,a mater's efforts to help every student succeed, I was shocked to see how much the little snivelers whined when they got homework.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[rhodie]

I'd like to address these:

Our profession is facing critical problems:

1) The perception that Engineers have poor communication skills

Many of the engineers that I deal with DO have poor communication skills. It seems that a superiority complex comes with the package when you purchase an engineer. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but the engineers that actually CAN effectively communicate are quickly sucked up and reassigned into other roles.

2) The lack of Engineers in leadership roles

See point 1 for an explaination of why engineers aren't in more leadership roles.

3) The lack of women and minorities in Engineering

Bah. Pure drivel. If more women wanted to be engineers, they would. As far as minorities in engineering, I see plenty of "minorities" in other parts of the world being engineers. Again, if more American minorities wanted to be engineers, they could.


4) Unemployment and under employment

I understand unemployement, but not "under employment". Aside from that, I wholeheartedly agree with you here. We need more employed engineers in America! Yay!

 

[Binary]

Rhodie:

Under employment =
[ul][li]Only able to find PT or temp work instead of a real job[/li] [li]Settling for well below market rates with no benefits because 30% below market is still way more than 0[/li][li]Working in a non-professional role to at least get some money rolling in (e.g. EE's working at Radio Shack)[/li][/ul]
At least that's my take on it.

Based on what I see here in Northern CA, it's a serious problem.

 

[PSE]

All,

Not everyone has the attributes to become an engineer so a certain amount of attrition is to be expected. This may give a bit of a bootcamp or purposeful weeding out connotation to the curriculum. I don't think or expect this to ever go away. From my experience, most of the "weeding out" occurred within the first year of school with the first level calculus, physics, chemistry or other technical course. This was where the student decided whether or not they really wanted to persue an engineering degree at all or the type of engineering they wanted to major in. "Major(s)" did not have to be decided on until the end of the sophomore year. Generally from that time onward, there was very little attrition.

I think that most of the attrition at my alma-mater was due to students becoming surprised and therefore overwhelmed at the sheer pace of the information being presented. It rapidly became apparent to those who succeeded that we were going to have to work hard and often together in order to make it through the program (skills that have definitely helped in my working career). Those that left were often happier or relieved knowing that they were meant for a different vocation.

I agree wholeheartedly on the need for more rounded education and communication skills. These were often left open as electives (though required to be outside of the sciences/engineering curriculum). Some sort of technical writing or communication class, ethics, and history could be added to a "recommended" electives listing leaving others completely open for exploration. Perhaps the best class I had was "Senior Lab" in which we had to setup, and conduct experiments then write up the results in a format "suitable for publication". A new experiment was conducted each week with the results due at weeks end.

 

[josephv]

Hello PSE,

Your point is well taken.

I agree with you, hard work in engineering education is very valuable and has much merit.

My main concern is that there should be much more emphasis on developing communication skills. And there should also be more engineering courses (e.g. interesting design courses), in the first 2 years of the curriculum, so that the students realize that there is a reason for studying all this math and science (i.e. they see the light at the end of the tunnel).

Here is what I would like to see done:

1) At least 1 language / communication / history course per term

2) Elimination of "graduate courses" in the undergraduate curriculum (e.g no quantum physics courses for undergrads)

3) All math and science courses must have more emphasis on presentation and communication skills (e.g. a student should be able to stand up in front of the class and explain how he solved a problem, or as you said present a report "suitable for publication&quot

4) A mandatory Engineering Problem Solving course should be added for first year students

5) A mandatory Applied Engineering (e.g. design) course should be added for second year students

6) More emphasis on philosophy and history. A student should know about Newton's life and about Descartes' philosophy, and not just memorize their theorems.

7) An engineering student should be able to write essays on important social issues, and write an excellent resume and cover letter (i.e. not just memos).

Let's not settle for the status quo...

So, I ask the engineering community...

Why can't we be better?

 

[PSE]

Josephv,

Sounds good to me. It's too bad that there are not likely to be many professors who visit these forums. There are a lot of gems to be found in this information mine.

Regards

I might take some exception with the quantum physics at undergrad levels. For my degree it was required in order to understand some of the devices making use of quantum characteristics. It would also be needed for anyone looking into the nuclear field.

 

[TheTick]

One more take on boot camp:

The purpose of many courses of military training is not only to impart knowledge of a particular subject matter, but also to condition the student for certain types of behavior.

One example of this is the U.S. Navy nuclear training program. There, students need to assimilate new information at a rate 2-3 times faster than the average college student. Additionally, the school is set up to condition students to question everything they see and hear and not accept anything strictly at face value.

Putting engineering students through a grueling academic schedule does more than teach calculus and weed out the unmotivated. To succeed, a student must be either extremely gifted -OR- he must catch on to managing his time and setting his priorities while simultaneously maintaining his physical and mental health.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[QCE]

JosephV

I agree with your post, however many universities already basically do this.

I know mine did!

I agree with a couple of things I see in the postings. Weeding out is necessary! However, after the first year of jumping through hoops, the courses should focus on education and people skills.

Again, this is what my university did!

 

[TheTick]

QCE = Quinn Eddins?

 

[QCE]

???

 

[TheTick]

QCE:
Your initials and attitude match those of someone I knew in college. Never mind.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[QCE]

I hope Quinn wasn't a jerk!

At my university we had the following courses:

1st Year:
Seminar Class - basically public speaking
English 111 - Shakespeare and Classics

2nd Year:
Design Class - A design class were you actually work for a company for 4 months and they give you a design problem. You work with your industry contact and are assigned a professor at the university to answer questions for you. The main focus of this is a professionally written report and a presentation in front of the faculty and industry.
Art Class - Take one course of your choice from the Arts and Science Department.

3rd Year:
Communication Class - A public speaking and professional writing course that they push you very hard in. (This is very key)
2 Lab Classes - These are very intense hands on classes. (Good Stuff)


4th Year:
Design Class - Similar to 2nd year class. Involves faculty and industry but runs for 8 months.
1 Lab Class - See 3rd Year
1 Art Class - See 2nd Year

 

[greenone]

Rhodie "Bah. Pure drivel"

Women and minorities are underrepresented in engineering fields, and I believe that it hurts the profession as a whole. We need to represent all of society, not just one portion of it. The hostility that women/minorities encounter in some engineering fields is quite real. Engineering school is tough enuf-why stick around if other students and faculty make it clear you are not welcome?
I thought we got over this archaic view 20 years ago (that women just don't want to be engineers). Unfortunately, speaking with current undergrads, things do not seem to be improving.
"Boot camp" is a symptom of the belief that engineers have to be taught to be tough. Problem solving can be taught in other ways.

 

[QCE]

I'm with you sister.

Unfortunately too many women are now herded into engineering by "encouraging women enrollment in engineering" groups. It's all good to "fight the power". But I have talked to a lot of women lately that either dropped out after first year to do what they really wanted to study or are pretty sour engineers.

 

[cbiber]

How 'bout we start a new thread about "encouraging women to enroll in engineering"? I have the feeling we could find a lot to discuss!

Most of my female friends from college aren't engineers anymore --