Engineering Union 2

[buzzp]

Does anyone know the reason why engineering ethics include the statement that engineers shall not form a union? Where did this originate from is really my question. I am not real interested in hearing arguments for or against the union just curious to know why someone thought it was important enough not to have an engineering union. Thanks

 

[COKA]

Very good question!! I think that a union may become very controversial and that having engineers in a union under those circumstances may put them in a bad position. This is just my opinion.

Coka

 

[JAE]

Very much in the historical concept of labor vs. professionalism. Historically, in the USA at least, unions were generally viewed as part of a "lower" class of laborers that had to band together to create political power to deal with "management" in terms of working conditions, salaries, etc.

For engineers to get organized into a union, you would be diminishing the status, class level, and respect of engineering (at least in the historical socialogical views).

Unions were somewhat arrayed with anarchists (Chicago) and with socialists, communists, etc. (but not always) and this was totally contrary to the "other" side of society made up of upper class careers like doctors, lawyers, managers, businessmen, etc.

There is also the concept of professional ethics that governed architects and engineers over the years whereby one engineer would be prohibited from competing with another engineer by underbidding services or by politicizing the selection process.

 

[EddyC]

The NSPE Code Of Ethics doesn't say anything with respect to unions.

buzzp,

Is there another Code Of Ethics that you are refering to? If so, please identify it. I am curious.

Also, I did interview at a firm once that did have a union, which every employee there was required to join.

I have heard that Engineers working directly for New York State are in a union. I am sure that this applies to others.

I believe that Engineers at Boeing are in a union.

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

Hi buzzp,

I haven't heard of this in any Code of Ethics? Where have you seen this? Many engineers, especially in government, work as union members. I think the only conflict is when engineers are managers, this creates a conflict of interest, and thus obviously managers can't be union members.

Regards

VOD

 

[TheTick]

Doesn't Boeing have union engineers?

 

[JAE]

Don't confuse industrial based engineers (those working for and within a particular company) with engineers holding themselves out to the public. I believe that the question concerns the latter only.

 

[buzzp]

I guess I never looked on NSPE site under their ethics. In was from the code of ethics my engineerng college handed out about ten years ago. I better dig that out if I still have it and see where they got it from.

I was, in fact, mostly concerned with engineers in the exempt area.

The above mentions about unions and engineers, are any of those unions bargaining units (negotiate pay)? I, too, am in a union but not a bargaining unit. Kind of worthless really.

 

[IRstuff]

The Boeing union and SCPEA negotiates everything but salaries.

TTFN

 

[GregLocock]

In Australia we have a union, APESMA, which represents some engineers, and even some supervisors.

We have the ridiculous situation that only unions are allowed to negotiate for our pay rises, yet many engineers, myself included, are not in the union. So we aren't even represented (in theory) at the pay negotiations.

There is a push by the unions to make non union members pay a 'negotiation fee' to the unions in return for representing the at the bargaining table.

This rather transparent ploy seems likely to succeed, unfortunately.


Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[bubb375]

Buzz-

I'm pretty sure that Seattle Professional Engineer's Association (SPEA) negotiates salaries with Boeing. They went on strike for a few months back in 2001 I think. An engineer for Boeing is not required to join, and Boeing usually matches any salaries for non-union employees.

As for your ethics questions, I've never heard of anything to that effect. It was never mentioned the entire time I studied for the PE exam. The MERM doesn't mention it, and neither does NSPE.

Brian

 

[RDK]

Engineers working for the Canadian federal government all belong to the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada (PIPS).

This is a union in all but name.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[ARH]

OPG Engineers were all in a union (wich is why they all got nice golden handshakes) Bu they were lumped in with everyone else working for Ontario Power Generation.

 

[buzzp]

Bargaining engineers union. I like it. I guess the ethics the university I went too was listing is not the norm. Thanks for the replies.

 

[curvbridger]

Engineering, when practised in the public sector (as opposed to industrial - as stated previously) would have additional conflicts of interest if they operated within a union context.

Union members have a responsibility to protect the jobs, reputation, etc. of their fellow union members. Professionals, inlcuding doctors, lawyers, and engineers have a primary responsibility to the public; not to their brothers in trade.

It will not be difficult for you to imagine where conflicts of interest might occur.

I believe that these conflicts of interest are sufficient to make it unethical for engineers to unionize.

Curvbridger

 

[buzzp]

I don't see the need for consultants to unionize at all.

Unethical? I would say not. Any possible improvements to be had by consultants unionizing? Probably not. However, it would bring up the pay for most exempt engineers. Its hard to work for a company knowing that the trade workers are making as much as you are, only because they are unionized. I am their boss, so why am I making the same amount as the electrical foreman? Anyway, I can deal with it.

I learned something interesting the other day that makes me upset and sort of off topic is that real estate appraisers have their own little monopoly going to control the competition and to have a kind of price fixing. Did you realize that going to college (2 years I think) is not enough to become an appraiser? They are required to work under an experienced appraiser for 18 months (might very by state) in order to become licensed. The problem is the latter, working with a mentor. This allows them to control the number of new appraisers entering the field of work. It also allows them to set their own rates because there is no competition. No wonder it costs $450 for an hour of easy, easy work. Sorry to go off on a tangent.

Hmmm, sounds real close to the requirements to obtain a PE only the mentor thing can often be waived depending on experience. Oh, and the eight hour test.

 

[Ron]

Professional Engineers have a responsibility first to the public. That's why we are even required to tell our employers to take a hike if they require that we do something to violate engineering law or ethics (when intertwined with the law). The concept of a Union does not allow the independence required of Professional Engineers to exercise professional judgment (for instance, an engineer must opine on something that might just cross into another Union's purview. One example that comes to mind for me is that if a technician is in a union and the engineer wants to do an auger boring on a site to get the "feel" of the soil's resistance first hand, he might be prevented from doing so under Union rules. That would compromise his ability for independent evaluation and judgment)

 

[GregLocock]

Hmm, yet your 'professional' organisation requires some sort of no-compete laws that I have yet to get my head around.

How does that square with "a responsibility first to the public"?



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[buzzp]

So let the technician do the drilling and you watch him then there is no problem with the union.

In any case, I don't really see how a union would benefit someone working as a consultant. However, I do see the benefits for exempt engineers.

Thanks for the posts.

 

[Tobalcane]

Well this is my $0.02. I don’t think unions would be good for engineers. A point of view would be work ethics. With work going over seas and just disappearing here, there is more emphasis on getting work done faster and cheaper (yes I do know that can lead to errors and problems, but that is reality). Union’s work ethics are geared for a slower work pace, pigeon holed to a certain task, and do not do casual time (not getting paid for doing more work to get the job done). I think most engineers are professionals, as in getting the job done. We’ll work a little faster to meet a dead line, wear many “hats” to get the projects over hurtles, work a few more hours a day (not get paid for it) to do the drawings or last minute analysis to make the ghost go away. No body tells us how to work, what our limitations are, and how long to work (40hr+) so that the endeavor would be that the company would still be afloat when we get back on Monday.

In a gun battle (the market) who ever gets their pistol loaded and then fire it (the product) will win.

Tobalcane