Engineers lacking in US decision-making? Show civic responsibility 20

[kenvlach]

IMHO: too many engineers don't bother with their responsibility to be good citizens. Instead of making an effort to be informed and participating in guiding the course of the nation, they are blasé and allow politicians (mostly lawyers, some corrupt) and special interest groups to shape our future.

Example: The ASCE calculated that $1.6 trillion is needed over a five-year period to bring the nation's infrastructure to a good condition. This would boost the economy, productivity and quality of life throughout the US. See

http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/index.cfm

But instead, a huge, non-productive spending is going into a black hole outside the US (Iraq), increasing the national debt and incurring long-term costs which will bring the total spent to possibly $2 Trillion including long-term health care to disabled vets. Perhaps even worse, the US is furnishing men & women, vehicles and buildings for terrorist live-fire targets. The righteous rage of Americans over 9/11 got conned into supporting "the worst foreign policy mistake" in the 200+ history of the US [conservative columnist Pat Buchanan].
For a total Iraq war cost estimate from Harvard & Columbia professors (including the 2001 Nobel laureate in economics), see
'Iraq Black Hole
The $2-Trillion War'

http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/050682.html

BYW, when allocating resources to a given project, the consequences of not funding alternatives must be considered. Indirect costs of the Iraq fiasco in my opinion will be even greater than referenced above.

Consider the consequences of having redeployed men, materiel and intelligence assets from Afghanistan: A resurgent Taliban, no justice for 9/11, record opium poppy crop, an expensive eradication program rather than a logical solution, a weakened government in (nuclear-capable) Pakistan...

Also, the US Navy has reduced surveillance and interdiction of cocaine traffickers in the Eastern Pacific off Latin America by 50% and by more than two-thirds in the Caribbean (and all but 5 of the DEA's Black Hawk helicopters assigned to the Caribbean have been taken away, with those 5 due to go by Oct). Consequences are a doubling of the cocaine supply to the US (Pentagon estimate) and drug/civil wars in Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico.
The impact is enormous.

The recent Minneapolis bridge collapse illustrates that politicians have been setting the wrong priorities for the US, while making us all pay. Remember the $231M 'bridge to nowhere' in Alaska? The $500M added to the Katrina & War funding bill in May 2006 to move a railroad ( rebuilt within 10 days of Katrina) & highway inland in order to build resorts & casinos along Mississippi's Gulf coast?

How has all this happened? In part, we as citizens haven't held politicians accountable. Being informed is the first step. Be skeptical about what they say – follow the money trails. I hope that in the future, engineers help steer the nation's course of action, rather than passively waiting for possible job assignments to trickle down.

P.S. If hesitant about getting involved or voicing an opinion, remember that w/o funding, engineering wouldn't be a profession, merely an academic exercise – and homework gets red-flagged!

 

[KENAT]

Sorry, just realized I'm taking this thread off topic a little.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[dcasto]

In the olden days people made war for one mission, redistribution of wealth. As governments came in we limited war and relied on taxes to redistubute wealth, when taht got to messy, we empwered lawyers to redidtrubitute wealth because ther is less blood shed than wars and less group finger pointing than governments. In Canada the health programs suck because you just die before you get a hip replacement. In the US you get a hip replaced as soon as it aches a little, not because you can no longer add value (oh, boy, wait till that bounces around, really, I mean would a new hip really really add to the good of society?).

 

[RDK]

Yes there are waiting lines for things like hip replacements in Canada.

However everyone can get one when necessary. What about the 45,000,000 people in the US with no health insurance? (Mainly the working poor with no benefits in their jobs)
My point was that the US is a high tax country once you adjust for the fact that it is also the only developed western country with no national health insurance plan, paid for out of the taxes.

It is by comparing raw tax rates without considering what you get in return for these taxes that perpetuates the myth that the USA is a low tax country.

As engineers we should be able to look beyond the raw data in coming to our conclusions, especially if we want to be leaders and influence the decision making in our societies.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[patdaly]

RDK, that number is bogus.

It includes many younger people ( such as I once was ) who have made the conscious decision to not be covered while young to save money for other things. It also includes people who refuse to work for whatever reason, as well as god knows how many Illegals. The news media types like to hype this number, but the simple truth is not a single person in this country is turned away for emergency care from the Hospital, and we pay for it through increased Insurance costs.

Not to say there isn't a better way, but I just wish people would be honest when they describe a problem.

 

[ewh]

No one is turned away... They are allowed to wait in the waiting room, a few days if more urgent cases arrive. Heck, some are even allowed to die in the waiting room, such as the woman who was refused treatment earlier this year in California. EMS wouldn't help, either. Yep, darned good system.

Sorry, I had to get that out of my system.
Many who rely on emergency care really have no where else to go. They are forced by the system to wait until a minor problem becomes an emergency. It would be much more cost effective to treat them before it gets to this stage, but without insurance, they have to wait.
The system is broken. I wish that I had a solution.

 

[gearguru]

ewh,
once when in SF, one strong, young man asked me for donation to homeless people. When I told him that I am an immigrant, (legal by the way) who pays for himself and his family by working, he sheepishly disappeared.
My family has never been without insurance in this country. Does it cost money? Yes. Should I ask for donations? Only in an emergency. By the way - why should the US taxpayers solve social problems of some neighboring countries?
Sorry, I also had to get that out of my system.

 

[ewh]

gearguru,
I applaud you and your priorities, however this is a much larger issue than one just involving the homeless.
Insurance in this country is very expensive, to the point that it is considered a luxery by many. Most of the people affected in my part (and probably most) of the country make well below what the average participant of this forum earns. The type of low skill jobs available do not offer health insurance, and it becomes a choice between health insurance, food, and transportation. Transportation is needed for employment, food is not an option, insurance is a wish.

 

[KENAT]

star ewh, Patdaly I can't fully agree with your points on healthcare. gearguru, I'm in a similar situation to you but I don't assume that everyone that doesn't have healthcare is because they aren't trying.

My wife encounters these issues regularly as she is a social worker (not the enabling type, more the get off your a**, take a shower and get a job but I'll help arrange childcare type).

She has people in her case load who are working multiple jobs some while going to school, some with learning disabilites etc who can't get affordable health care for their children let alone themselves. Yes there are schemes/programs, including the emergency room services, but they leave massive gaps in approaching anything like comprehensive healthcare.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[patdaly]

Perhaps our Insurance rates might be much smaller if we all paid for our own? By that I mean, all those who are treated for "free" still cost the Hospital money. Where do you think they get that money? Yep, you guessed it, the 12 dollar aspirin!

The same thing essentially happens when we see drivers without insurance, the people who do, pay much more than they otherwise would have to ( uninsured motorist ).

I really hate to say it, but I don't see a way out until the system breaks totally down and there is no choice but for people to pay their own way again, and unfortunately, many will die before the systems re-balances itself.

 

[engphila]

FYI, I have always been told that the US has a lower overall tax rate upon its working citizens as compared to western countries, but now here's some supporting evidence:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/0/1942482.xls

engphila

 

[RDK]

There are two ways to compare tax costs.

You can compare them on a percent of GDP (or wages) basis or in absolute dollar terms.

Whichever way you pick, you also have to look at what you are getting for this money and whether the country’s government is running a deficit or surplus.

From the data given above as a percent of wages the US is pretty close to Canada and the UK higher than Japan and much lower than France Germany and Italy. If you converted it to absolute dollar terms, the US with the higher wage rate would pay more dollars in taxes Canada and the UK and would close the gap between it and the other European countries.

All other countries have a national health care system that US citizens pay for in other ways (generally as part of the employment package in lieu of higher wages).

All countries except Canada are running government surpluses and in effect deferring additional taxes. The US has a higher military cost in its government spending (only by a couple % points and the military costs are much smaller than medical costs)

Iyts not how much you pay in taxes that matter, it is what you get for these taxes and how much you pay for the total bundle of services that you require that matters.

The post above proves my point, which is not the relative tax rates, government deficits, health or military costs, but that we engineers who are fully capable of taking a lot of confusing data and making rational decisions based upon the disciplined analysis of this data in our professional lives somehow fail to apply the basics of engineering analytical discipline when we venture outside the profession. The post simply provides raw tax data which is not analyzed in any meaningful way.

If we cannot arrive at our political positions based on our rational analysis and interpretation of the data how can we ever make the correct conclusions and decisions that would allow us to become the leaders of our societies?

This is not to say that we may have different ways to analyze the data and reach diametrical opposite conclusions but we should be able to defend the assumptions made and the methods of arriving at rational decisions.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Rjeffery]

Please show me where, in the US constitution, the Federal Government can take my money and give it to someone else to pay for their _____________. Fill in the blank with health care or any other thing that you could wish for...

RDK makes a good point about rational thought and data.

 

[BJC]

Rjeffery, it's in the preamble, first sentence.

"... . .promote the general Welfare..."

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

 

[Rjeffery]

The preamble is NOT law.

The Constitution must specifically state what the Federal Government can and cannot do, hence the ratification of the 16th amendment that allowed the Federal Government to tax our income.

 

[BJC]

Section 8 - The powers of congress.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

 

[Rjeffery]

define: "General Welfare". Specifically the "General" part.

 

[BJC]

"define: "General Welfare". Specifically the "General" part. "

Supream courts been doing that for over 200 years. I'm sticking to engineering.

 

[Rjeffery]

Then I'll help:

I submit to you that “general Welfare” is common defense, common law, preservation of the union, international trade and international trade. Common in this case is defined as shared by all or applied to all. These are powers enumerated within the constitution.

Welfare is synonymous with prosperous. The founding fathers did not use “welfare as a synonym for “Hand-outs from Uncle Sam”.

America was founded by people (men and women) that stood on their own two feet and took care of themselves and their family. They were not against personal charitable giving but I believe that they would be shocked that income of Americans could (would) be confiscated to pay for an able bodied American to sit on their butt and not work.
Kenvlach’s question was why did engineers not step up and help steer the country into a more economical direction; a more logical more reasoned direction. My rhetorical question was posed to try to direct the discussion back to the main thread and to move it to influence LOCAL government into doing the logical, reasoned actions that would make us (U.S.) more efficient and even less taxed (at the federal level).
Please understand I am not trying to be rude or political, just informative. I am sorry if I have offended any one.

 

[BJC]

Rjeffer
"I submit to you ...."
And I can submit to you that it is what it is and the Supream Court has agreed with that. It's a power that is in the constitution.
Did you know that student loans made by or guaranteed by the Federal government are classified as welfare?
I wonder how many of the forum members went schools or universities that never received any money from the feds, that never had professors that never recieved a federal research grant, etc. If you can find an engineer without some federal money in his/her education he's probable from another country. Student loan guarantees and Pell grants are a form of welfare we could do without. We have to many engineers now. Giving engineering students money is in the same category as giving it to the PWT in the trailer park.
The percentage of money that goes to "welfare" as it is commonly defined (fat women with two or three kids living in a trailer court etc. etc.) is very, very low.

The question of why engineers don't do more is evident when you have seen a few in action. Since they are more educated and smarter they have the answers. They also seem perplexed when people don't understand and accept their simple well though out solutions. They don't seem to understand why people think they are arrogant.